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Campus Drunk Confidential

A reader who is a veteran police detective in a major college town writes in response to the “What Is Consent To A Drunk?” post [1]. I have removed identifying information at his request. He starts by saying that the four years he spent working in his department’s sexual assault division were the worst of his career. He explains below:

In the course of my career, I have responded to the hospital to investigate a report of sexual assault hundreds of times. Here is the down and dirty bottom line regarding 90%+ of reported adult sexual assaults: It’s the alcohol. Period. Full stop.

Of all of those hundreds of reported sexual assaults that I have responded to over the years, I can count the number of substantiated incidents of what Whoopi Goldberg so inartfully once termed “rape- rape” on both hands without taking off my shoes. I’m talking about the full on stranger rapes, the “Jack the Ripper drags a helpless woman into an alley” type of scenario that pops in most peoples’ minds when they hear the word “rape.”

Section wide, we probably average less than ten of those “nightmare” rapes a year in a city of 300,000 people. The rest of them, the overwhelming rest of them, are acquaintance rapes. And alcohol is at the bottom of the vast majority of those.

People who are removed from the social scene of young adults today can’t really comprehend how out of control alcohol abuse is among college students and other young people looking to party. I went to a “party school” myself and there was a lot of drinking in the mid- nineties. Thursday night was the big party night and I had a lot of classes on Friday mornings that were mostly empty.

But these kids today don’t want to just drink to get buzzed and have a good time. They drink with the goal of a black out. It starts with the “pregame.” Prior to going out to hit the bars with your fraternity bros or sorority sisters, you meet at someone’s house and have a couple of drinks there before you even leave. The idea is that you get a little buzzed before you leave, so you won’t spend as much money on overpriced drinks at the bars.

Of course, it doesn’t actually work out that way. They have two beers at home and then three, five, seven more at the bars. Plus the two shots that somebody bought them.

So by last call, they’ve had anywhere from five to God only knows how many drinks in about a four hour period. In a 115 pound sorority sister, that’s a hell of a lot of alcohol.

Oh, and did I mention how many of them are on medications that are contraindicated for alcohol? Given our pill-popping culture in general, I’ll just round up and say that all of them are. Especially mood altering medications and most especially Ambien.

Ambien, my God, the Ambien. Maybe it’s a regional thing, but sometimes it seems like they get it given to them like candy around here. Ambien, of course, intensifies the effects of alcohol, yet these kids pop their daily prescribed dose before or during the pregame, effectively “roofieing” themselves before they even leave the house.

And I’m still mostly talking about the women here. The men, the accused suspects, are usually drinking even more then the girls do. Judgement gets impaired all around.

Now, this self-intoxication by the victims does not excuse rape. But what gets reported to us isn’t “rape- rape” most of the time.

What gets reported is “Well, me and my girlfriends met at Lisa’s apartment to pre- game. I had a beer and a shot there. Then we went to This Bar and That Bar and I had three shots at the first place and an Appletini at the second place plus this guy gave me half his beer. So, we were dancing and then Lisa and Cindy left. So the guy who gave me half his beer said we should go to This Other Bar to meet his friend and we did. And I had two shots and then he bought me this mixed drink… I don’t remember what it was called or what was in it. And then I had another beer and we danced and I remember we were making out at one point in the bathroom and I gave him a blow job. Then I remember we left This Other bar-”

Needle scratch. Wait a minute. You gave him oral sex?

“Well, yeah…”

And there’s your other big piece of the reported sexual assault puzzle: Hook up culture. Everything up to PIV (penis in vagina) is on the table when you’re hitting the bar scene. It’s almost a given.

So, back to our narrative, our victim and the guy she just met “hook up” consensually and close down the bar and now its 2 AM and she can’t really remember much after that, just bits and pieces, until she woke up in a strange place next to a strange man.

The twist? It’s not the guy she was dancing with and gave oral sex to. It’s his roommate. She thinks she had sex, but she can’t remember. She went home and talked to her roommate and her roommate talked her into coming to the hospital.

So she has the exam and she’s got no physical injuries because nobody beat, punched, or choked her. And we talk to the guy and the roommate and their story is that she came home with them and she and the roommate sat up talking and smoking weed after the guy she came home with passed out in the living room and one thing led to another and the roommate had consensual sex with her too.

And out of this morass of bad decisions and contradictory claims, the social justice types want us to present a viable prosecution? Ain’t happening.

This story plays out with subtle variations over and over and over again. At the bottom of them all are “Demon Rum” and Hook- up culture. In some cases, the suspect’s behavior is more egregious, but not usually. Physical evidence, including DNA, isn’t the answer. Most of the time all a sexual assault examination proves is that the alleged victim had sex. It doesn’t prove whether or not the sex was consensual. There are no injuries because the body parts used for sexual relations are made to be stretched. It still almost always comes down to “he said- she said.”

At the end of the day, you end up with a mess that you can’t prosecute. And, in all fairness, I shouldn’t want to see it prosecuted. Probable cause is a pretty low standard. It doesn’t take much proof for me to arrest you, but when it comes to sexual offenses, I’ve always felt I had a duty to make sure I went beyond mere probable cause before I charged. The reason is that even if a suspect ends up beating the charge at trial down the road, all his friends and family members will know that he got arrested for rape for the rest of his life. That’s a stance that’s gotten me in Dutch with rape crisis counselors and the like a time or two over the years.

But no worries, because most of the time, the victim flakes out within a week, calls you up, and says she doesn’t want to proceed with the investigation anymore. So you pend that case and forget it and wait for the phone to ring again.

This is why I called my years primarily investigating adult sex crimes as “purgatory” at the beginning. So many cases end up being so pointless. It gets really hard when you’re dealing with people that we have legally declared to be “adults’ by virtue of their age who are still making terrible choices.

I’m afraid it sounds like I’m faulting the victims. And I guess I am, to a certain degree, but it’s a bit more nuanced than that. I have sympathy for these women and I believe that the vast majority of them do truly believe that they have been wronged. (An email about the ones I’ve come across who make false allegations out of spite, jealousy, or mental problems like the girl at UVA would be at least as long as this one.) On a moral and ethical level, based upon quaint standards of chivalry and gentlemanly behavior that no one seems to practice anymore but that the Disney corporation told these women from a young age that they should expect, they have been wronged. But that doesn’t mean a crime has occurred.

Years ago I took a class on Crime Prevention Through Environmental Design. One of the illustrations that the instructor used was that of the “Triangle of Crime.” In order to have a crime, you need three things: A Criminal, a Victim, and a Place for the crime to happen. Eliminate any one of those pieces and no crime occurs.

Eliminate the binge drinking and hook- up cultures that a vast, vast majority of reported sexual assault victims willingly participate in, and you would eliminate practically all reported sexual assaults in this country. Eighty percent of them at least would disappear because you would eliminate the victim side of the crime triangle.

We do not do our young people, be they men or women, any favors when we shrug off self- destructive behavior as just “sowing wild oats” in 2016 because it is well beyond that in our fallen and broken culture. Young people, though they may be of legal age for a lot of this activity, still need guardrails.

I don’t have a whole lot of hope personally that will change before I retire in a few years. I suspect it will get much worse.

I feel like I should close by mentioning my perspective on the Stanford sexual assault case. That case is not the typical drunken victim scenario that I’ve been going on about here, even though the victim did drink a lot. She had apparently moved past “blackout” to full- on unconsciousness and there’s no way that the suspect can claim some kind of misunderstanding or miscommunication. I would have killed to have the facts of that case during my time in purgatory, which I realize is a weird thing to say. Only a very grizzled veteran sex crimes detective can hear a story like that and think “What an awesome rape case to work! Witnesses! Suspects caught fleeing the scene! Beautiful, I tell you!”

That victim by all accounts is, for lack of a better term, a true victim of “rape- rape.” The judge’s sentencing decision is horrible. For one thing, it’s a very difficult thing to get a successful prosecution on a sex offense through a jury trial. There’s almost always one nut on a jury who thinks all women are asking for it or just can’t bring themselves to decide that the clean cut young man in the suit at the defendant’s table could have actually done something so horrible that will hang your jury.

My professional advice to anyone who is a victim of a sexual offense or who has a relative who is a victim of a sexual offense who has a case that is getting ready for a jury trial and the prosecutor comes to you and says “The defendant is willing to plead to a lesser offense, but it’s up to you if we make the deal or not,” is to agree to the deal. Juries are just completely unpredictable, especially when it comes to sex offenses. I’ve seen it happen too many times where a victim has to endure the public spectacle of a trial only to have the defendant acquitted, found guilty of a lesser offense anyway, or the jury hung. It’s very tough. Take the deal.

Kudos to the Stanford victim for following through. It’s absolutely terrible that the judge decided to insult her with the sentence he passed down.

The detective ends by saying that he’s looking forward to the Benedict Option book.

I can’t think this detective enough for writing with the perspective of what the campus “rape culture” looks like from the point of view of a cop who has to deal with it. As a father of kids who will all be of college age within the next nine years, this sobers me immensely (pun intended) about the task of preparing them for it.

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129 Comments To "Campus Drunk Confidential"

#1 Comment By EliteCommInc. On June 12, 2016 @ 1:22 pm

“Yes but. The detective’s anecdote does not contradict the existence of “rape culture.” On the contrary, his experience paints an iceberg, not tip, view of what “rape culture” really means.”

There’s no overwhelming evidence that a rape culture exists. This catch phrase has the power of emotion force, but little in the way of evidence. Now in a political gambit to avoid responsibility women have pushed for an expanded definition of rape.

But that does not a rape culture exist.

Allow me to add a caveat to y previous comment:

Kissing as a rare foray into a personal example does not a fornication make. I have no doubt that I am might leap to some other conclusion. I delighted to be a prudish and celibate and embrace it fully.


“Just as no frat brother would ever think about trying to have sex with his sister, no mater how drunk he is, stronger cultural taboos against sexual licentiousness . . .”

I am not sure one can get more taboo than an in ancient times, yet, the issue was key enough to demand strict penalties. A taboo is a reinforced learning — it’s not going to trump impaired brain function as the result of drug use. The best one could contend is that it might, maybe, ought to — but in the end —

impaired brain function is impaired brain function.

#2 Comment By anori On June 12, 2016 @ 1:32 pm

It is slightly amazing that so many commenters appear to believe there was no rape before the sexual revolution.

#3 Comment By JDB On June 12, 2016 @ 1:35 pm

@Public Defender: I agree that alcohol “contributes to bad decision making that puts some young men in the position of creating situations in which they could plausibly (if not conclusively) be accused of rape.” But I think that something frequently (actually, almost always, as far as I can tell) missing in these discussion is *how incredibly easy* it is to get drunk and *not* rape someone, or even do something that can be remotely construed as rape. It’s so easy! But the emphasis on the role of alcohol suggests that it is a matter of luck when drunk people don’t rape other people – and that’s extremely implausible (at least to me).

I *think* I agree with at least the letter of your other remark, “And alcohol certainly is “foundational” in taking away many defenses women have against rape.”, though with the caveat that it is only “foundational” in the same sense that “walking alone” or “walking without men” or “failing to take a self-defense course” are “foundational”. Those are all things that women have a right to so, and as such they have close to nothing, if not exactly nothing, to do with blame for assault (and I’m not sure we’re disagreeing there).

#4 Comment By Steven AD On June 12, 2016 @ 2:02 pm

Rod, thank you for this discussion. My dearest friend has a girl heading off to a Big 10 university this fall. Thankfully (hopefully) my friend has prepared her daughter well.

Another buddy of mine, who is 43, now has a five year old girl and a newborn daughter.

In the old days, we’d give him the business about having a shotgun mounted over the fireplace. Well, these days, that may not sound so old fashioned. Unfortunately, might not do much good either.

#5 Comment By Mike On June 12, 2016 @ 3:43 pm

I hope Rod Dreher checked to make sure that this anonymous detective actually worked for a police force. Because the “detective” referenced how he makes the decision whether or not to charge someone with a sex crime. But decisions to charge or not are left to prosecutors, NOT police detectives. So why did the “detective” talk about the standards he uses, or make the comment that his charging decisions have raised ire with rape counselors, if he isn’t even the person who’s making charging decisions? Hope the guy isn’t an elaborate fraud.

#6 Comment By Jeremy Janson On June 12, 2016 @ 4:07 pm

Part of the problem though is many ways young people aren’t partying ENOUGH. We really do have a crisis of soft skills: social skills, critical thinking, life wisdom, connections, a safety net, young people aren’t acquiring these things because we don’t have a broken society, we have NO society. As a result, our fertility rates have plummeted: in just ten years, we have gone from 2.3 children/woman to 1.8, and given the way these things are calculated, a decline that fast means that it isn’t done declining yet.

Much of this excess really stems form the excessive antisocial nature of America outside of campus drinking culture, where no one knows their neighbors, traditional social bulwarks like the Church and the community have ceased to exist (and even the family isn’t as strong [or large] as it once was), and it’s fairly typical to waste (and yes, I do mean to use that word) 10 years of your life not making a single friend or having a single meaningful relationship with anyone. Many of these young women probably think they will NEVER have sex, or love, or anything if they don’t go through this. Human beings have a profound need for other people, and unfortunately, this reckless, binge-drinking insanity is often their only chance to get it!

#7 Comment By R. L. Hails Sr. P. E. (ret.) On June 12, 2016 @ 4:36 pm

Several thoughts. The conduct being considered is a crime. It should be handled by a police report, and prosecutorial investigation. It should not be processed via on-campus committee of academics, who simply are incompetent in criminal investigation and adjudication. If, as discussed by the cop, the overwhelming cases involve gross drunken behavior by both parties, as witnessed by others, there is a presumptive position that criminal intent, or effective resistance, is impossible to define. That should be the disposition of most cases.

However, records of such conduct, leading to a documented reputation of “party school”, should be required by law, and open to incoming applicants. This dangerous conduct will not stop until people, students, administration, local bars, are held accountable for their conduct. When people are expelled from college, lose their liquor license or experience a sharp reduction in high level applications, conduct will change.

#8 Comment By BetterLooAdvocate On June 12, 2016 @ 5:33 pm

As William Munny might say “campus culture got nothin to do with it.” Every day all over the United States people binge drink. In hovels, bars, nightclubs, strip joints, back roads, back yards, bowling alleys, corn fields, living rooms, kitchens, city parks, beaches people guzzle booze down in all of its manifestations like fishes. Most of them don’t rape.

Indeed, overall binge drinking among younger adults is actually down, although campus binge drinking is still somewhat higher (6%) than non student binge drinking. It’s much tamer now than in the past.

For contrast, if you went to the University of Florida in the 1980’s you would have seen a mountain of empty kegs piled 20 feet high behind each frat house and enough booze, coke and weed handy to inebriate/plough down a small town with extra to spare.

It was insane. It’s a miracle anyone survived.

We are and have been awash in booze our entire existence as a country. From sea to shining sea. The very revolution that made us in part came out of sharing ideas while guzzling brews, cider and rum in taverns. Men stumbled home and mumbled to themselves about separation from the homeland.

The officer somewhat implies these students arrive chaste and nary a swig of the devil water hath passed their lips before landing on campus. In reality most are pretty experienced drinkers by the time they arrive on a campus. Similarly, if someone is going to commit sexual assault, they’ve also most likely done it before in some form or another. It’s already manifest.

A sexual assault is just as likely to happen after a night out clubbing, or a pub, or a movie at home, or a restaurant, or a house party as it is on a college campus. Rape is rape. People who are capable of rape do so — wasted or sober. Those who are not capable of rape don’t — wasted or sober. The campus culture aspect is mostly irrelevant, and so is the alcohol in the sense of initiating a rape or sexual assault. One doesn’t just rape out of the blue when wasted.

If I drive obliterated and kill someone who is equally obliterated, I’m still guilty of manslaughter. The alcohol didn’t initiate the driving. I did. The alcohol made the driving impossible, but it’s not the impetus for me driving. I just defaulted to something I normally do. I might not remember anything, but that’s irrelevant. That the victim was wasted is also irrelevant. I should be investigated and prosecuted with equal zeal using all the tools/resources available.

What the policeman is expressing is really a cop out. A murder victim can’t testify or remember details either, but we still prosecute those cases using forensics and other investigative tactics don’t we? What’s the difference? If a woman gets drunk and goes home with someone who strangles her and dumps her body somewhere is she to blame? Is alcohol to blame? No, the assailant is to blame.

#9 Comment By Public Defender On June 12, 2016 @ 6:12 pm

JDB,
I think we agree on the lack of blame part, but I don’t think I’m as wary as you to advise young people not to binge drink and thereby decreasing the chances of getting raped or accused of raping.

People have a “right” not to take prudent action to protect themselves from all sorts of crimes. I guess I’m not too concerned with saying that binge drinking is a “right” best not exercised by anyone because it makes everyone more vulnerable to all sorts of problems.

#10 Comment By Public Defender On June 12, 2016 @ 6:16 pm

And one more point–Dreher’s detective correspondent sounds like a stand up guy. I know my clients are cooked when a competent cop openly tells me how he or she methodically nailed my client. The correspondent sounds like that kind of person–good for the innocent, bad for the guilty.

#11 Comment By EliteCommInc. On June 12, 2016 @ 6:42 pm

The contend that an officer does not charge is false. The initial charge is made by officers. Hence the expectation that upon asking an officer the charge or the detain — he disable to tell you.

When one asks what am I being arrested for the officer of the court should have an answer. The charge can be noted even before a prosecutor sees the ca or even hears about it.

Whether said charge is referred for prosecution is another matter. If you are arrested for DUI, PI, those charges are noted immediately. Fortunately, i have never been drunk, but having taught, coached and worked as a facilitator, there’s plenty to support that officers make initial charges.

#12 Comment By John On June 12, 2016 @ 7:50 pm

When universities encourage sex with “Sex Week” and handing out condoms how can either these young men or women expect to behave with maturity. Certainly parents aren’t teaching abstinence, or even encouraging it. We have lost a lot by giving up in loco parentis. Society may finally get so bad that there will be an awakening that reverses all of our licentious behavior, but it won’t come without a great awakening of religious belief.
The hedonistic, anything goes lifestyle that many have accepted as normal will crash and burn eventually just as late 18th century hedonism gave way to the Victorian age. Yes, there will be still be rape and evil, but society will start to frown upon it again and many fewer will be harmed by our casual acceptance of what is truly sin.

#13 Comment By JonF On June 12, 2016 @ 8:03 pm

Re: Why didn’t colleges have this problem years ago?

To some extent because it was not reported. Women who were raped by dates and acquaintances were generally believed to have enticed the men with their clothing and behavior. Even stranger rape was sometimes excused that way.

#14 Comment By Joys-R-Us On June 12, 2016 @ 10:09 pm

I think that something frequently (actually, almost always, as far as I can tell) missing in these discussion is *how incredibly easy* it is to get drunk and *not* rape someone, or even do something that can be remotely construed as rape. It’s so easy!

This is certainly true, but often irrelevant to cases such as the detective was describing. What’s hard to do while drunk is to not have consensual sex that later is described as non-consensual simply because the two parties were drunk. Alcohol does lower inhibitions, and people do things they might not do while sober. But having what appears to be consensual sex isn’t one of those things. And expecting either men or women to think that their having of consensual sex while drinking is actually rape, and therefore shouldn’t be had, is very hard to process. Even when cold stone sober, I have a hard time processing that concept.

#15 Comment By Gerbby On June 12, 2016 @ 10:52 pm

I don’t think binge drinking and hook-up culture causes rape, but it does create an environment where preditors can get away with rape. Emma Sulkowicz, “matress girl,” claimed that she had consensual sex with the guy, then he pinned her down and anally raped her. I am sure that some men would get off on such a thing, but how could it be proven beyond a reasonable doubt?

Also, I agree that very few people actually participate in hook-up culture, but casual sex has been normalized to such an extent that people uninterested in it felt the need to coin the term “demi sexual” to clarify that they only enjoy sex with a long term partner. We seem to have set up culturally norms that actually only satisfy a few people.

#16 Comment By dominic1955 On June 12, 2016 @ 11:03 pm

BetterLooAdvocate,

“What the policeman is expressing is really a cop out. A murder victim can’t testify or remember details either, but we still prosecute those cases using forensics and other investigative tactics don’t we? What’s the difference? If a woman gets drunk and goes home with someone who strangles her and dumps her body somewhere is she to blame? Is alcohol to blame? No, the assailant is to blame.”

But that isn’t the issue. If a woman gets “raped-raped” that is a crime regardless whether she was drunk or not.

The issue is when people (men and women, straight or gay, etc.) have stupid drunk sex and then regret their debauchery in the morn, the “r-word” shouldn’t get thrown around.

Many people seem to miss this point-drunk college students do stupid things, but it shouldn’t be made into something it isn’t. I’ve been plenty drunk plenty of times but I’ve always had it in me that random sex is just a bad idea on so many different levels such that I happened to successfully navigated those channels when the opportunities presented themselves. Other people with no such scruples are full steam ahead in those sorts of situations and end up doing things they might not have done or been in an environment to do them with sometimes rather negative consequences.

It just seems like back in my day, people owned up to their stupidity at least a little more. From what I heard in my circles, one took their licks from their buds or girlfriends for bagging a fat chick or some scurvy loser or whatever type of person happened to be a beer goggle disaster in those particular groups. That, or you just made up a story that didn’t involve sleeping with that person.

Either way, no one accused the other of “raping” them.

#17 Comment By EliteCommInc. On June 12, 2016 @ 11:52 pm

“Why didn’t colleges have this problem years ago?’

1. The expanded definition has made making the accusation easier.

2. The tend to tell women they are not responsible ha made the matter more convenient and sympathetic.

3. The level of intermixing minus some manner of supervision today is appears to be nearly extinct.

4. The power of impropriety made this matter a slight less appreciated as popular consumption.

5. The use of alcohol was far more restrictive than is the case today.

So far removed today at a the behest of women for men to be the protectorates of women’s virtue, yet there seems to be a level of expectation from women that men carry them even when both are intoxicated —
that disappointment must be redressed and the cause mentality of today fosters victimization as opposed to prevention.

Here’s an idea for men and women – stop getting intoxicated to lubricate anything and cease drinking on dates of anykind to one you have no intention of marrying. A sober conversation might actually be a healthy way of getting to know the other person.

I do get that I am responding a lot here. But the integrity of virtue and the value of sobriety needs advocates.

#18 Comment By Public Defender On June 13, 2016 @ 7:17 am

EliteCommInc is correct. Police in many (all?) jurisdictions can frequently file initial charges. The prosecutor (and sometimes a grand jury) then has to decide whether to pursue the charges or they will be dismissed, but the police often get to make the first call.

Too many people are unaware of the awesome discretionary powers we give police officers. Cops have more effectively unreviewable discretion than any other participant in the criminal justice system. Who would you rather have on your side–the beat cop or five justices of the US Supreme Court? I’d rather have the beat cop.

#19 Comment By tmitsss On June 13, 2016 @ 9:37 am

[2]
There’s a saying about drunks – that men wake up in jail cells, women wake up in strangers’ beds. That incredibly broad, possibly sexist generalization actually rang true for writer Sarah Hepola during her drinking days, when she considered alcohol the fuel of all adventure. Many of those adventures ended with her in bed with a man she didn’t know, not sure of how she got there. Her memoir, “Blackout: Remembering The Things I Drank To Forget,…
HEPOLA: Well, I’ve just noticed that this is a word that a lot of us use, but we don’t necessarily know what it means. So a blackout is very different from passing out, and a lot of people conflate the two. Passing out is when you drink so much that you fall asleep unconscious on the couch and you’re snoring. But in a blackout, you remain interacting with the world. You know, basically, you drink so much that your long-term memory shuts down. So you’re still walking and talking and interacting with people, but the recorder in your brain isn’t going. And it can last for a few minutes. I can go in and out – that’s something called a fragmentary blackout. And there’s something called an en bloc blackout. It’s a French word – B-L-O-C. And it’s these large swaths of time that are just gone, and you don’t have any memory of them. And these happened to me quite frequently, especially as I got older.

#20 Comment By Alyssa On June 13, 2016 @ 10:50 am

To Richard Waze,

Missing from YOUR discussion is the small fact that when told to stop by the two Swedes Brock Turner RAN AWAY. So he’s too drunk to realize he’s assaulting someone who’s unconscious, but sober enough to realize he’s been caught?

I can’t speak as to what the campus drinking culture is like (I avoided it in college myself) but after reading comments like yours it’s perfectly clear that rape culture does exist, and yes men DO need to be taught what consent is since many of them still don’t appear to know.

#21 Comment By CatherineNY On June 13, 2016 @ 11:53 am

I’m still reeling from what Rod’s correspondent says about Ambien prescriptions. Ambien is a sedative prescribed for sleeping disorders, am I right? Why on earth would college students have Ambien prescriptions? This is nuts.

#22 Comment By craig On June 13, 2016 @ 3:54 pm

“Why on earth would college students have Ambien prescriptions?”

Ambien has a reputation as an aphrodisiac that enhances the intensity of sexual activity.

[NFR: Seriously? I can testify from personal experience that that ain’t nearabout true. — RD]

#23 Comment By Crouchback On June 13, 2016 @ 6:03 pm

Alyssa,

It’s even worse than it sounds. This wasn’t like cops found them. Turner didn’t know the Swedes from Adam. So Haze is suggesting Turner abandoned the woman he thought he was having consensual relations with to two strange men – and Haze is defending Turner. Cowardice is a Hell of a defense to make.

#24 Comment By BetterLooAdvocate On June 14, 2016 @ 1:40 am

dominic1955,

I see your point, but in this day and age with as much advocacy that has been done on campuses and high schools around this issue — much like drunk driving — one goes into that cloudy alcohol fueled risk of potential prosecution with eyes wide open.

One has to side with the person who feels victimized in these cases — always. The ambiguities, memory loss, discrepancies will come out in trial if it goes that far. The judicial system still needs to treat these cases with the same degree of seriousness as a violent non-alcohol related rape.

The grand jury can decide whether or not to indict. The judge or jury can decide whether a crime was committed or not.

#25 Comment By Joys-R-Us On June 14, 2016 @ 3:31 am

One has to side with the person who feels victimized in these cases — always.

And what if the person who feels most victimized is a guy falsely accused of rape when all that happened is drunken consensual sex?

#26 Comment By BetterLooAdvocate On June 15, 2016 @ 3:03 am

Joys-R-Us,

since the article, my initial response and my response to Dominic1955 were dealing with rape & sexual assault, I assumed I wouldn’t have to specify that the word “victimized” meant a person who felt they’d been victimized specifically by being raped. But there you go.

Your hypothetical “guy” can feel victimized all he wants. The fact is he understood fully the risks associated with getting wasted and having sex with someone who is wasted. Since the vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults are perpetrated by men, the “guy” is fair game for an investigation, potential prosecution and potential conviction if the person he was with felt they were raped.

So again if one gets wasted and puts oneself into a situation fraught with the peril of another’s random personal psychology, subjective perceptions, memory lapses and unknown previous trauma all exacerbated by alcohol then one may have to pay the price of enduring the rigors of the legal system.

#27 Comment By Joys-R-Us On June 15, 2016 @ 7:37 am

BetterLooAdvocate,

Your argument is incredibly sexist. The fact is, the woman also understood fully the risks associated with getting wasted and having sex with someone who is wasted. Why isn’t she accused of rape by the poor naive guy who didn’t realize that he hadn’t gotten laid, but had actually been raped? Where are the consciousness-raising sessions for these poor guys? Why aren’t the police investigating the woman for rape, and bringing charges, and letting a jury decide the truth of it?

I’m sure there are cases like this where the guy really did rape the woman. But there are also probably plenty of cases where the woman was the aggressor. Woman can be horny and sexually aggressive, especially when drinking, didn’t you know that? Why aren’t they being prosecuted for that? Do they get a pass because they are women? Are men presumed to be the guilty party simply because they are men? Did it ever occur to you that the reason women might cry rape after drunken sex has entirely to do with sexist cultural notions about men and women? And that this does, indeed make the man the victim, perhaps even twice over. First, by being raped by the woman, and second, by being accused of rape by her? You think that doesn’t happen? You don’t get out much, do you?

So again if one gets wasted and puts oneself into a situation fraught with the peril of another’s random personal psychology, subjective perceptions, memory lapses and unknown previous trauma all exacerbated by alcohol then one may have to pay the price of enduring the rigors of the legal system.

If people really believed that, we’d be seeing a whole lot of women enduring the rigors of the legal system for having drunken sex. But you and others espousing this don’t actually believe it. You think it only applies to men. And that’s dangerously sexist.

#28 Comment By BetterLooAdvocate On June 15, 2016 @ 3:54 pm

Joys-R-Us,

my statement isn’t sexist. The vast majority of rapes are committed by men against women both domestically and worldwide. There’s not an equivalency of experience as you imply. The incidence of male rape by a women is under reported, but overall it’s pretty rare by comparison. The under reporting of male to female rape though is very high.

As such the legal system is going to tend to gravitate toward the male suspect in a “he said she said” scenario much like in murder cases the investigator will start with husbands, wives, boyfriends, friends, etc — those closest to the victim — because the vast majority of murders are committed by people the victim knows.

Focusing on the male isn’t a bias necessarily, although there has historically been a strong bias with regard to race and rape. The innocence project has exonerated an alarming number of African American men convicted of rape who were innocent.

That aside, the spotlight is going to be focused on the most likely scenario in these case with respect to initial investigations, whether the prosecutor thinks they can convict etc.

And let me be clear, I absolutely believe that when a woman comes forward it is very very likely she was raped by her assailant and statistically that assailant is almost always a male. But there have been several high profile cases of false reporting and those were brought to trial and the males suspects were exonerated. But again those cases are very rare.

So again, your false equivalency is mostly hypothetical and not grounded in statistical analysis of victimization surveys like the NCVS, or the criminal justice organization reported UCR which both clearly indicate that most rapes are perpetrated by males against females.

So again if one wants to avoid that heightened scrutiny based on the statistical likelihood that as a male one is much more likely to have raped from the legal systems point of view then maybe one should:

A.) stay sober enough to have one’s memories intact and better judge the capacity of your hook ups
B.) stay sober, be thoughtful, careful and don’t rape
C.) don’t rape.

This is an old thread so I’m going to spare Rod anymore responses for him to review on this.

#29 Comment By Fran Macadam On November 5, 2016 @ 8:28 pm

The “reporters” that keep saying Assange is evading a “rape” case ought to read this. In that case nothing even rises to all the cases the detective passed by. The email exchange between Abedin and Clinton makes clear that the U.S. wants to imprison him as a criminal enemy of the United States, for revealing oligarchy dark deeds.