State of the Union

What Is It We Wish to Conserve?

Better Late Than Never . . .

By Clark Stooksbury • October 25, 2011, 5:01 AM

Aaron Goldstein asked a question that probably would have garnered the label “unpatriotic conservative” eight years ago:

I have given a great deal of thought to the War in Iraq since President Obama announced that all American troops would be withdrawn at the end of this year after he failed to obtain an extension to the 2008 Status of Forces Agreement signed by former President George W. Bush and Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. I found myself asking a question I thought I would never pose.

Should Saddam Hussein have stayed in power?

He’s on to something, although he should be asking, “should the United States have invaded Iraq?” Saddam Hussein was a monster, but for all of President Bush’s prattle about the “threat” from Iraq, he was in no position to attack the U.S. and his humiliating capture demonstrated that he had no death wish. Invading Iraq was a foreseeable disaster; but if memory serves, right-wing websites and publications allowed no dissent on the issue when it mattered.

Posted in Conservatism, Iraq, War.

13 Responses to Better Late Than Never . . .

cfountain72 says:

October 25, 2011 at 7:47 am

Of course, if we actually learned anything useful from that debacle, we could point to some tiny silver lining that might save us from similar disasters going forward. Unfortunately, the lessons according to many folks are:

The Surge Worked ™.
We should have just started with more troops.
Nation-building is fine, as long as we do it ‘right.’
War is fine as long as we don’t actually have to pay for it in increased taxes, or a draft, or Bill Kristol doesn’t have to actually suit up.
Americans have very short memories.
People who don’t speak English can be killed indiscriminately since ‘that’s just part of war’ or ‘that’s the price for freedom.’

Peace be with you.
tbraton says:

October 25, 2011 at 9:08 am

“He’s on to something, although he should be asking, “should the United States have invaded Iraq?” Saddam Hussein was a monster, but for all of President Bush’s prattle about the “threat” from Iraq, he was in no position to attack the U.S. and his humiliating capture demonstrated that he had no death wish. Invading Iraq was a foreseeable disaster; but if memory serves, right-wing websites and publications allowed no dissent on the issue when it mattered.”

I agree with cfountain’s observation, and I happened to witness a dramatic illustration of his point on Morning Joe this mornng. Zbigniew Brezinski proudly recounted that he strongly opposed the Iraq War in 2003 and actually advised the Bush Administration after 9/11 to attack Afghanistan but to go in quickly, hit Al Qaeda and the Taiban hard and then withdraw quickly without getting bogged down in nation-building. Those were both my positions at the time, and I was pleasantly surprised to find that Brezinski’s advice on Afghanistan at the time actually matched my view. But then Dr. Brezinski went on to praise Obama’s decision to aid the rebels in Libya and said the recent killing of Qaddafi confirmed the “wisdom” of Obama’s decision. There was no discussion of the fact that we again attacked a country which did not attack us and represented no threat to us, just like Iraq, and that Obama waged his splendid little war without seeking or obtaining Congressional authorization, unlike Iraq where Bush at least did obtain Congressional authorization. So, if an intelligent and experienced man like Zbigniew Brezenski cannot draw the proper lessons from our Iraq misadventure, there seems to be little hope that the majority of Americans can be expected to do better.

Even an ardent and outspoken advocate of the Iraq War (and one who heaped scorn and contumely on anyone brave enough to voice opposition to the war) such as Ross Douthat was able to concede only a few months ago—-eight years later—that he may have been wrong to support the Iraq War. And I find it noteworthy that Mr. Douthat was rewarded for his ardent support of the Iraq War by being made the youngest columnist in the history of the NY Times at the ripe age of 28 back in 2009 as the “conservative” replacement for Bill Kristol, another supporter and promoter of the Iraq War. It seems very much like the “golden parachutes” handed out to all those failed corporate executives in the last two decades as rewards for bringing down their corporations.
nixonian says:

October 25, 2011 at 10:25 am

The entire Iraq adventure has been an utter fiasco. The argument that we spent 4400 lives and a trillion dollars, and that our leaving makes it all for nothing begs the question: what if we waste another 4400 lives and another trillion dollars for nothing, does this somehow make the loss of the first 4400 and the first trillion “meaningful”?

What is going to happen next would have happened next if Saddam Hussein had died in “office”. We gave the Iraqis an opportunity they have quite adequately proved they didn’t want, and certainly did not use properly. Were we supposed to stay until the Iraqis became sufficiently interested in their own fates to behave responsibly, learn to govern themselves, rebuild their economy, and take responsibility for their own security? If so, we would be there 100 years. If we waited for them to become friends of the principles we claim to hold dear, we would be there 1000 years. If we waited for them to become a “strategic ally” or a beacon of liberty in the Middle East, the sun would burn out first.

We should immediately form an American Lincoln Brigade for all those fire-breathers who huff and puff about how Obama is running out on the poor brave helpless Iraqis. Let them go to replace American soldiers who have uncomplainingly served in that flyblown hellhole.
James Canning says:

October 25, 2011 at 11:39 am

The US knew Iraq posed no threat to the US, or to the UK, before the invasion.

A related question is whether it would have been far better to keep the Sunni power structure in place, after Saddam was overthrown. This would have avoided the squandering of trillions of dollars, the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives, etc etc.

tbraton – - I agree with you it was wrong for the US to ignore the UNSC resolution limits, and to use military power to overthrow Gaddafi when he posed no threat to the US.

cfountain72 — One might add that G W Bush was a fool for not taking the advice of the Iraq Study Group, to make deals with Iran and Syria and pull all US troops out asap. Would have saved many hundreds of billions of dollars.
tz says:

October 25, 2011 at 12:03 pm

What happened to the Christian Community in Iraq – under Saddam and now?

Don’t count the 600,000 children killed by our sanctions which Albright said was “worth it”.

One of the keys to a war being just is that you are going to bring grave evils upon noncombatants in even the most carefully executed just war. Christians lived in relative peace under a monster, and the kurds v.s. Shiite v.s Sunni conflict was repressed. We removed a dictatorial monster to unleash a democratic one.
Jim Dooley says:

October 25, 2011 at 1:19 pm

Even after 10 years, no, most especially after 10 years, I am still waiting for some definition of success in Iraq that credibly accrues to our vital national interest. What we have gotten is one ‘narrative’ after another that has served chiefly to disguise from the political public the as yet not fully unfolded disaster. Even today with the final exitus yet to come, the government still can’t face the public with the unvarnished truth about how it has come about that we are leaving.
The fact of the matter is that the Bush Administration invaded a country about which it didn’t know a damn thing other than the invasion routes; it mistook the Iraq of its ambitions for the real thing and the real thing turned out to be too much.
I guess all the tragic waste don’t mean much to them boys and girls who made the whole thing possible, not enough anyway to merit an ‘I’m sorry’, even for what that’s worth, from a single one.
tbraton says:

October 25, 2011 at 2:33 pm

“tbraton – – I agree with you it was wrong for the US to ignore the UNSC resolution limits, and to use military power to overthrow Gaddafi when he posed no threat to the US.”

James Canning, I don’t know about you, but I strongly believe that neither the United Nations nor NATO (absent an attack on a NATO member) has the authority to give the President of the U.S. the right to wage war. The only institution with the authority to declare war under our Constitution is the U.S. Congress. So Harry Truman, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama each acted illegally in waging our wars in Korea, Serbia and Libya. In Obama’s case, he compounded his error by clearly exceeding the terms of the UNSC resolution.
daddysteve says:

October 25, 2011 at 5:26 pm

Of those who tried to ditch the U.S. dollar , two down and one to go.
James Canning says:

October 26, 2011 at 11:23 am

tbraton – - Since Libya had not attacked the US, or any Nato country for that matter, what basis would have been available for a declaration of war? None, it would appear.
James Canning says:

October 26, 2011 at 11:24 am

tbraton – - What is your viewpoint on the bogus pretext for the war in Vietnam (Tonkin Gulf “incident”)?
tbraton says:

October 27, 2011 at 9:35 am

“tbraton – – What is your viewpoint on the bogus pretext for the war in Vietnam (Tonkin Gulf “incident”)?”

Robert McNamara admitted in the Errol Morris documentary “Fog of War” that, as you correctly state, the Tonkin Gulf incident was made up out of thin air. Johnson and McNamara both acted criminally as far as I am concerned, just like Bush in the Iraq War of 2003. My oldest brother served two tours in Vietnam and nearly lost his life or his ability to walk on the first. (An AK-47 slug in his lower back inches from his spine.) I think Vietnam was a terrible and costly mistake.
James Canning says:

October 27, 2011 at 11:44 am

tbraton — I am glad the terrible blunder of the Vietnam War did not take your oldest brother’s life.
I knew a neighbor and friend of McNamara’s, and she told me he was privately admitting the war was set up by a scam, long before he went public.
James Canning says:

October 27, 2011 at 11:50 am

Has anyone heard or seen anything in recent years about Richard Branson’s effort to fly Saddam Hussein out of Iraq just hours or days before the US/UK invasion was launched? My understanding is that Richard was planning to fly his jet personally, and to take Saddam to a place of refuge in order to avoid the war. And that US warmonger refused to delay the attack for a day or two to allow Branson’s plan to go forward.