Rod Dreher

In Germany, A Crime To Be A Jew?

Double Standards: Germany v. Russia

By Rod Dreher • August 24, 2012, 1:34 PM

Church officials at a German cathedral have filed charges against three masked activists who disrupted a Sunday mass in support of the Russian rock group Pussy Riot, the officials confirmed to NBC News.

Two days after the Pussy Riot verdict in Moscow, the copycats stormed into the mass at Cologne cathedral and shouted “Free Pussy Riot,” while throwing leaflets into the crowd.

After less than a minute, the activists were escorted out by church wardens.

Prosecutors told NBC News that under German law, the two men and one woman could be prosecuted for the disruption of free practice of religion.

If convicted, they could face up to three years in prison – compared to the two-year sentence given to their heroines in Russia.

If only the corrupt, nationalistic German church wasn’t in bed with Angela Merkel! :::snark:::

Posted in Religion, UK/Europe. Tagged cathedral, Germany, protest, Pussy Riot, Russia.

24 Responses to Double Standards: Germany v. Russia

SusanKG says:

August 24, 2012 at 1:39 pm

Angela Merkel’s father was a Lutheran pastor in East Germany. She has far more personal acquaintance with issues regarding the persecution of a religion than either Rod or the vast majority of the readers of this blog.
Jake Lukas says:

August 24, 2012 at 1:44 pm

[...] prosecuted for the disruption of free practice of religion.

All those who complain about PR’s prosecution, fearing limitations on freedom of speech, should consider this line. Tension always exists between order and liberty. If free practice of religion is desirable, then there must be places where a man is to be free to pray to his God in peace. If such places are to exist, then they must somehow come under the protection of law. Even in our own system, such places fall under the protection of the law (i.e. property and trespassing laws).
John E_o says:

August 24, 2012 at 1:46 pm

Church officials at a German cathedral have filed charges against three masked activists who disrupted a Sunday mass in support of the Russian rock group Pussy Riot, the officials confirmed to NBC News.

If there is a list of sentences whose meanings are made ambiguous by poor sentence construction, the above should be on that list.

Also, the difference between Germany and Russia will become clear when these folks are sentenced.
Rod Dreher says:

August 24, 2012 at 1:48 pm

Angela Merkel’s father was a Lutheran pastor in East Germany. She has far more personal acquaintance with issues regarding the persecution of a religion than either Rod or the vast majority of the readers of this blog.

Don’t you get that I’m not making fun of Merkel, but rather the people in the West who think the PR verdict is some sort of authoritarian Russian thing?
Edward Hamilton says:

August 24, 2012 at 1:54 pm

Obvious dissimilarities between the two cases include the fact that an actual worship service was disrupted, the fact that there’s no sign of the German government attempting to grandstand on the issue, and the fact that Putin has governed in a way that’s actually worthy of protest.

Charging into the middle of a Eucharist actually does impair the free exercise of worship, and I think it deserves to be treated more harshly (whether it occurs in a cathedral or a small Protestant storefront church).

I’d also guess that the odds of these copycats getting two years in the equivalent of a Siberian penal colony for a bit of shouting is pretty slim. I’ll take 10-1 odds from Rod (or anyone) against that happening.
Brian says:

August 24, 2012 at 1:57 pm

1. PR didn’t disrupt a church service, so the “offense” isn’t at all similar.

2. You don’t honestly think these folks will get jail time, do you? Be serious.
MH - Secular Misanthropist says:

August 24, 2012 at 1:59 pm

It’s not a double standard if we think Germany is nuts too. They have a blasphemy law and Manfred van H. got a year in jail for toilet paper that insulted Islam.

Granted these people should be prosecuted, but a possible 3 year jail term? That’s crazy talk. I Googled “disrupting a religious service” and several US states have such laws. But it is a misdemeanor and punishable by community service or a 93 days jail term. That’s more reasonable.
Polichinello says:

August 24, 2012 at 2:05 pm

Obvious dissimilarities between the two cases include…

And then follows the handwaving.

B-b-b-b-but Putin’s so mean. This isn’t the only case in the West where people face jail time for “expressing” themselves. A lot of people do face jail time and fines for truly expressing themselves on a number of issues that the EU elite have deemed verboten. So spare us your crocodile tears over some perverts in Moscow. You really don’t give a shit about them. You just want a stick, any stick, that allows you to beat on white Christians because they’re a safe and approved SWPL target.
SusanKG says:

August 24, 2012 at 2:05 pm

Rod–Yes, I get that. But the point I was making is that we trust the German government more than the Russian government on this issue in part because the German government has more commitment to basic human freedoms. As Edward Hamilton said, it is highly unlikely the German trespassers will get the same treatment PR did.

One reason I trust the German government more on this issue is that they are familiar with the persecution of religion, but at the same time religions in Germany do not have incestuous and corrupt relationships with the government.
Turmarion says:

August 24, 2012 at 2:10 pm

All European nations had state churches relatively entangled with the government until relatively recently; and as secularized as Europe is, some states still have things like anti-blasphemy laws on the books, even if they’re not often invoked. Therefore you have the paradox that European nations are very secularized and have few believers but churches whose pastors are still (in many cases) State employees, and with laws that if invoked can be quite draconian; and the U.S., though with a far higher rate of religious belief and practice, has no state relgion and relatively fewer direct protections against anti-religious speech or actions.

It’s sort of “choose your poison”. I’d choose our system.
RiotPussy says:

August 24, 2012 at 2:21 pm

Edward Hamilton:
There actually were people in the Church that Pussy riot interrupted, and last time I checked worshipping God in a church can be done with or without a service, so yes they did impair free exercise of worship.
Secondly interrupting people in Church is not somehow justified because you do not like the regime, its like saying that if I steal your car when the economy is bad its ok since the regime is not running the economy very well.
Precious Metal says:

August 24, 2012 at 2:29 pm

There is a saying in Germany about why there is so little crime: “Why, it’s against the law!”. Russia is a land of thugs, Germany a land of law.

The reality is that the Eastern Orthodox Church has been in deep in bed with the government for many generations, long before Stalin, and the Germans have no such baggage. You reap what you sow.
VikingLS says:

August 24, 2012 at 2:35 pm

Edward Hamilton there were people in the Cathedral praying when PR pulled it’s stunt. That counts as disrupting free excercise of religion (the same would be true in a Catholic church.)
Bob Jones says:

August 24, 2012 at 3:25 pm

Rod,

Remember that in Germany there is still a strong relationship between church and state. Religion is taught in German public schools and the government collects taxes to support the church – both protestant and catholic. You actually have to self identify a religious affiliation for tax purposes.

besides, the Koeln Cathedral is a pretty spectacular architectural building, and its preservation is paid for by the German state. Thus, disruption is not only a disruption of religious services, but also a disruption on government property.
Bob Jones says:

August 24, 2012 at 3:26 pm

VikingLS: The Cologne Cathedral is a Catholic Church.
baconboy says:

August 24, 2012 at 3:46 pm

Personally, I’m always pleasantly surprised when anyone is worshipping in a European church.
Ivan K says:

August 24, 2012 at 3:59 pm

There is one and only one reason why this has made the news in the West: Nadezhda is cute and sexy. Well, that and the fact that the pussy riot masks played to western hipsters’ cartoon-shaped imaginations. There’s really nothing else: their music sucks and their message is banal. Every day ugly people with no sense of public relations (PR!), fashion, or color are arrested and mistreated in Russia, and no one cares. Even the relatively serious and media-savvy Kasparov drew little attention when he was arrested the other day, dramatically, brutally, and without cause. He is a pudgy, swarthy, middle-aged chess player…in other words, not sexy. I’m not even sure that most PR supporters in the West are aware that the Russian Church is in some way distinct from other Christian churches.
Pierre Corneille says:

August 24, 2012 at 4:22 pm

First of all, I agree with almost everything secular misanthropist said above.

Second,

“Don’t you get that I’m not making fun of Merkel, but rather the people in the West who think the PR verdict is some sort of authoritarian Russian thing?”

I’m not sure if you mean to stress “authoritarian” or “Russian” here. If it’s “authoritarian,” then I think, yes, the PR verdict is an authoritarian thing and the Germany verdict will be, too, if the perpetrators are sentenced to anything close to the maximum. (In fact, I think such a high maximum sentence–assuming we have the whole story here–is “authoritarian” and ought to be criticized as such.)

If you mean to stress “Russian,” I suppose I have tendency to see Russia as more authoritarian than (post WWII West and later united) Germany. And comparing the two incidents, so far (it depends on the verdict and political posturing in Germany), lends credence to my view. But I’m too ignorant of Russia to hazard anything other than an ill-informed guess about whether Russians are inherently more authoritarian than, say, Germany or even the more “law and order” types in the US.
Leo says:

August 24, 2012 at 9:11 pm

Rod, Putin’s crushing victory in this matter is unclear only to the silly. Serious people, meaning most Russians, fully understand this PR is just sad monotonous porn. Two years tucked away is merciful. What amazes me is the failure to understand the hysterical and xenophobic attacks on Russian Christianity are debilitating what was left of Western influence in Russia.
Leo says:

August 24, 2012 at 9:36 pm

I am collecting for fun the various imbeciles writing from Huffpo to Time Magazine who see the end of Putin in the imprisonment of these sad animals. What reading that will make a year from now, I wonder. Unfortunately, and as usual, defeat has been seized from the jaws of victory by the West. What could have been a dignified call for some leniency for the PR boobs has been little but a hateful and disrespectful campaign against Russian Orthodox Christians.It hasn’t just backfired with Russians, it is backfiring with American Christians who do not view invasion of our sacred spaces as “art”. Two cheers for Putin!!!
Mr. Patrick says:

August 25, 2012 at 2:44 am

It’s a European, established-church thing. When the Church stands with the powers-that-be, well who the hell needs a Satan?
Uncle Vanya says:

August 25, 2012 at 8:02 am

Susan KG wrote: “But the point I was making is that we trust the German government more than the Russian government on this issue in part because the German government has more commitment to basic human freedoms.”

You trust the German government, when Holocaust denial, (a highly offensive act, perhaps, but hardly one deserving of imprisonmment if you value free speech and thought), will land you in prison? Then where do you put the United States on the scale of nations who value basic liberties?

Thanks for the chuckle. Nothing like some good burlesque posing as serious repartee to get the laughs going early on a Saturday morning.
Siarlys Jenkins says:

August 25, 2012 at 10:49 am

Laws forbidding interference in the free exercise of religion are, in principle, no different from any of our laws which provide criminal penalties for interference in the exercise of a constitutionally protected right. Such laws expand the prohibition on state action to prohibit individual intimidation of another person, or private group intimidation.

Nothing wrong with that. It is very different from blasphemy laws, which no free republic of any integrity would tolerate. Europeans, as Tumarion highlights, did not come to democracy by anything like the same path the USA did.
VikingLS says:

August 25, 2012 at 11:25 am

Americans have largely viewed this incident through the lens of our own culture (as it seems have Western Europeans). Thus we have seen a lot of moralizing based on presumptions about society which don’t necessarily hold true with much of the world.

In the Baptist churches I grew up attending every congregation was democratic. If the congregation as a whole decided it didn’t care for the way the Southern Baptist Convention managed its affairs the congregation could simply vote itself out. If they didn’t care for the pastor, they could vote him out, and for that matter membership in the community involved being voted in and could involve being voted out. If an individual got fed up with Baptists overall they could start going to the Methodist church or a Presbyterian church, and now they have non-denominational mega-churches. As long as one remained Protestant changing denomination wasn’t a big deal, and was mostly seen as a matter of personal taste.

For a Russian Orthodox it isn’t like that. The Orthodox Church is The Church. The Patriarch is The Patriarch. An Orthodox Congregation doesn’t vote itself out of the Orthodox Church. If one leaves the church to become a protestant or a Catholic one must change one’s beliefs about Christian dogma and practice pretty radically. If foreigners are looking at the Russian Orthodox Church and saying to Russians “How can you belong to a church that so strongly supports Putin?” The response may well be, “what would you have me do, become an atheist? Not again.”

It should also be noted that the Orthodox Church is primarily a religious organization not a political one. The activity of the hierarchs politically doesn’t have a lot to do with what goes on in the local parish. One can be Orthodox, dislike some of the things your bishops say or do, and remain amongst the faithful. (And while the Patriarch is inescapable, unless one is a village dweller, one can go to a different Orthodox Church if one dislikes the priest(s) at the parish you’ve been attending.

I have to agree with Leo, this is a blown opportunity for the west. Even if they think the trial was silly, the sentence excessive, and the violent response of some Orthodox Christians is very un-Christian, being lectured by a corrupt and decadent west about free speech is more likely to cause resentment in the average Russian. (America, land of the “freedom fry”, should consider how little we care for other countries telling US what to do.) That many protestants essentially sided with PR can’t have gone down well either.