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	<title>Comments on: Cafeteria Catholics</title>
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		<title>By: Thomas O. Meehan</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-4988</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas O. Meehan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 16:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/#comment-4988</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the cite.  It makes for depressing reading.

Someone should quiz pro-torture  Evangelicals, Catholics and Mainline Protestants about their biblical authority for this belief.  Come to think of it, what was Torquemada&#039;s?   The Catholic Encyclopedia has an interesting biographical sketch which is a partial defense.  I know that Roman law included the practice, but significantly, it was prohibited for Roman citizens while mandatory for slaves caught up in investigations.  I gather that trusted or beloved house slaves could undergo a kind of faux torture (think the comfy chair).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the cite.  It makes for depressing reading.</p>
<p>Someone should quiz pro-torture  Evangelicals, Catholics and Mainline Protestants about their biblical authority for this belief.  Come to think of it, what was Torquemada&#8217;s?   The Catholic Encyclopedia has an interesting biographical sketch which is a partial defense.  I know that Roman law included the practice, but significantly, it was prohibited for Roman citizens while mandatory for slaves caught up in investigations.  I gather that trusted or beloved house slaves could undergo a kind of faux torture (think the comfy chair).</p>
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		<title>By: John Schwenkler</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-4975</link>
		<dc:creator>John Schwenkler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 05:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/#comment-4975</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Obviously a great many Churchgoing Republicans are Mormons, Episcopalians, Orthodox etc. I wonder what the breakdown is between denominations regarding torture, and how Catholics rank.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

IIRC the trend was observable across denominations, though I think Catholics didn&#039;t do as badly as Evangelicals. Here are the data: &lt;a href=&quot;http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=156&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=156&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Obviously a great many Churchgoing Republicans are Mormons, Episcopalians, Orthodox etc. I wonder what the breakdown is between denominations regarding torture, and how Catholics rank.</p></blockquote>
<p>IIRC the trend was observable across denominations, though I think Catholics didn&#8217;t do as badly as Evangelicals. Here are the data: <a href="http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=156" rel="nofollow">http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=156</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas O. Meehan</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-4973</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas O. Meehan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 04:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/#comment-4973</guid>
		<description>John,  I see that I also needed to make myself clearer.  I wrote …&quot; you seem to be conflating church going Republicans with Catholics.&quot;  I meant to write, conflating churchgoing Republicans AND Catholics.  The thrust of the piece dealt with Cafeteria Catholics while the sentence I cited seemed to lump &quot;Churchgoing Republicans&quot; with Catholics.  Obviously a great many Churchgoing Republicans are Mormons, Episcopalians, Orthodox etc.   I wonder what the breakdown is between denominations regarding torture, and how Catholics rank.

Another possibility comes to mind.  Having experienced the new and improved Catholic mass twice in the past six months at funerals, I suspect that most Catholics have grown inured to torture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,  I see that I also needed to make myself clearer.  I wrote …&#8221; you seem to be conflating church going Republicans with Catholics.&#8221;  I meant to write, conflating churchgoing Republicans AND Catholics.  The thrust of the piece dealt with Cafeteria Catholics while the sentence I cited seemed to lump &#8220;Churchgoing Republicans&#8221; with Catholics.  Obviously a great many Churchgoing Republicans are Mormons, Episcopalians, Orthodox etc.   I wonder what the breakdown is between denominations regarding torture, and how Catholics rank.</p>
<p>Another possibility comes to mind.  Having experienced the new and improved Catholic mass twice in the past six months at funerals, I suspect that most Catholics have grown inured to torture.</p>
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		<title>By: John Schwenkler</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-4972</link>
		<dc:creator>John Schwenkler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 04:31:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/#comment-4972</guid>
		<description>The correlation between church attendance and support for torture was found by Pew, I think - it&#039;s linked in the post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The correlation between church attendance and support for torture was found by Pew, I think &#8211; it&#8217;s linked in the post.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas O. Meehan</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-4971</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas O. Meehan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 04:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/#comment-4971</guid>
		<description>Without belaboring this, where is the correlation between church attendance established?  Were surveys done?  I haven&#039;t heard this before.

Of course both Catholics and Protestants were practitioners of torture in the past.  Never the less I think it unlikely that Catholics, when approached by Gallup, sprung to the defense of Friar Thomas Torquemada on the grounds of Catholic tradition.  And I never heard any of the numerous Protestant television preachers say the least kindly thing about thumbscrews.

If what you say is true, I suspect that both Catholic and Protestant, churchgoers, are by definition establishment types.  Establishment types do tend to support establishments, even when they&#039;re badly misguided.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without belaboring this, where is the correlation between church attendance established?  Were surveys done?  I haven&#8217;t heard this before.</p>
<p>Of course both Catholics and Protestants were practitioners of torture in the past.  Never the less I think it unlikely that Catholics, when approached by Gallup, sprung to the defense of Friar Thomas Torquemada on the grounds of Catholic tradition.  And I never heard any of the numerous Protestant television preachers say the least kindly thing about thumbscrews.</p>
<p>If what you say is true, I suspect that both Catholic and Protestant, churchgoers, are by definition establishment types.  Establishment types do tend to support establishments, even when they&#8217;re badly misguided.</p>
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		<title>By: John Schwenkler</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-4961</link>
		<dc:creator>John Schwenkler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 23:43:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/#comment-4961</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;... you seem to be conflating church going Republicans with Catholics.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I certainly didn&#039;t mean to be. My point, which was spelled out more clearly (albeit still briefly) in the post I linked, was just that frequency of church attendance has been found to be correlated with GOP affiliation, and that this fact, together with the observation that people conform their beliefs more easily to partisan affiliations than to religious teachings, can help us to understand the similarly observed correlation between church attendance and support for torture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8230; you seem to be conflating church going Republicans with Catholics.</p></blockquote>
<p>I certainly didn&#8217;t mean to be. My point, which was spelled out more clearly (albeit still briefly) in the post I linked, was just that frequency of church attendance has been found to be correlated with GOP affiliation, and that this fact, together with the observation that people conform their beliefs more easily to partisan affiliations than to religious teachings, can help us to understand the similarly observed correlation between church attendance and support for torture.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt C</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-4960</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 21:58:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/#comment-4960</guid>
		<description>Yes John, I was referring more to Christian&#039;s comment, and I guess the supposed thesis of Joe Carter&#039;s article, which unfortunately I&#039;m TLDR.

Also, referring more to the modern secular argument that since religious beliefs in the public sphere are a-la-carte, that religion itself is a farce.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes John, I was referring more to Christian&#8217;s comment, and I guess the supposed thesis of Joe Carter&#8217;s article, which unfortunately I&#8217;m TLDR.</p>
<p>Also, referring more to the modern secular argument that since religious beliefs in the public sphere are a-la-carte, that religion itself is a farce.</p>
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		<title>By: A.H. Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-4959</link>
		<dc:creator>A.H. Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 21:13:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/#comment-4959</guid>
		<description>John, I think this is right. This is why you see someone like Nancy Pelosi, who is practicing Catholic (I think), having liberal abortion views. And in the same way, this is why many neo-conservative Catholics believe the use of torture is an acceptable military practice. It comes out of this &quot;commitments.&quot; 

Benedict XVI in &quot;Deus Caritas Est&quot; talks about how Catholic social doctrine&#039;s aim &quot;is simply to help purify reason and to contribute, here and now, to the acknowledgment and attainment of what is just.&quot; Remaining within the bounds of orthodoxy remains critical considering the &quot;the dazzling effects of power and special interests&quot; that is always present in the political sphere, and always attempting to undermine these notions of justice. So, I think you are entirely correct in your analysis of those who selectively pick moral doctrine. It comes out of political expediency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, I think this is right. This is why you see someone like Nancy Pelosi, who is practicing Catholic (I think), having liberal abortion views. And in the same way, this is why many neo-conservative Catholics believe the use of torture is an acceptable military practice. It comes out of this &#8220;commitments.&#8221; </p>
<p>Benedict XVI in &#8220;Deus Caritas Est&#8221; talks about how Catholic social doctrine&#8217;s aim &#8220;is simply to help purify reason and to contribute, here and now, to the acknowledgment and attainment of what is just.&#8221; Remaining within the bounds of orthodoxy remains critical considering the &#8220;the dazzling effects of power and special interests&#8221; that is always present in the political sphere, and always attempting to undermine these notions of justice. So, I think you are entirely correct in your analysis of those who selectively pick moral doctrine. It comes out of political expediency.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas O. Meehan</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-4958</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas O. Meehan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 21:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/#comment-4958</guid>
		<description>&quot;If I may be permitted a moment of deepest cynicism, the obvious answer is that it depends on how nicely the relevant teachings comport with their partisan political affiliations and other preexisting biases, which is how we end up with the oh-so-unsurprising spectacles of predominantly Republican frequent churchgoers being among the most prominent supporters of torture,...&quot;  

First, you seem to be conflating church going Republicans with Catholics.  I&#039;m sure that there are many Christians who fail our ideal in the matter of, torture, but I have never seen a breakdown by denomination.  A lot of those &quot;Churchgoing Republicans&quot; were following the Reverend Hagee. 

Second, in my limited experience Catholics experience mental dissonance with church social policy when the objectives of that policy clash in the lebenswelt.  For instance, the experience of urban blue collar Catholics with the church&#039;s teachings on equality and brotherhood while their neighborhoods grew increasingly dangerous, alienated many otherwise observant Catholics.   Of course this is always the challenge of Christianity, to turn the other cheek.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If I may be permitted a moment of deepest cynicism, the obvious answer is that it depends on how nicely the relevant teachings comport with their partisan political affiliations and other preexisting biases, which is how we end up with the oh-so-unsurprising spectacles of predominantly Republican frequent churchgoers being among the most prominent supporters of torture,&#8230;&#8221;  </p>
<p>First, you seem to be conflating church going Republicans with Catholics.  I&#8217;m sure that there are many Christians who fail our ideal in the matter of, torture, but I have never seen a breakdown by denomination.  A lot of those &#8220;Churchgoing Republicans&#8221; were following the Reverend Hagee. </p>
<p>Second, in my limited experience Catholics experience mental dissonance with church social policy when the objectives of that policy clash in the lebenswelt.  For instance, the experience of urban blue collar Catholics with the church&#8217;s teachings on equality and brotherhood while their neighborhoods grew increasingly dangerous, alienated many otherwise observant Catholics.   Of course this is always the challenge of Christianity, to turn the other cheek.</p>
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		<title>By: John Schwenkler</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-4957</link>
		<dc:creator>John Schwenkler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:55:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/08/cafeteria-catholics/#comment-4957</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I don’t agree that cafeteria Catholocism is a result of people wanting to mold the teachings of The Church to fit their “deeply held beliefs.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But that&#039;s not what I said, right? My point was pretty much exactly the one you go on to make, that it&#039;s a matter of political convenience and partisan commitments more than anything else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I don’t agree that cafeteria Catholocism is a result of people wanting to mold the teachings of The Church to fit their “deeply held beliefs.”</p></blockquote>
<p>But that&#8217;s not what I said, right? My point was pretty much exactly the one you go on to make, that it&#8217;s a matter of political convenience and partisan commitments more than anything else.</p>
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