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	<title>Comments on: A Few Thoughts on Patriotism and Localism</title>
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		<title>By: Thomas O. Meehan</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/comment-page-1/#comment-4938</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas O. Meehan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/#comment-4938</guid>
		<description>John, That&#039;s what I get for not making my point clearly.  What I referred to was not Nazism as localism, but the manner in which the early Nazi movement wooed the many localist political parties in Weimar Germany.  In the aftermath of WWI a multiplicity of particularistic parties representing peasants, regions, religions and causes sprung up.  Individual States like Bavaria even attempted to escape the Republic.  The Nazi&#039;s were successful in appealing to these individual aspirations and vanities. eventually bringing many into the National Socialist fold.  None of these groups seems to have smelled the rat until it was much too late.

My point Isn&#039;t to denigrate localism but a pedantic one, to mention at least one example of localism playing into evil hands.  This does not delegitimize the localist impulse but serves as a warning of what can happen.  

On the other hand, the argument that localism equates with anti-semitism can only be somewhat true.  The experience of Jews in the antibellum South is not one of repression but of tolerance.  There was a Jewish Confederate cabinet member after all.  Southern Jews of my acquaintance report that, at least until the 1960&#039;s Jews living in southern communities were integrated into society as a community.  Shelby Foote  the late Historian of the Civil War was both a southerner and a Jew.  

The nexus between German localism and antisemitism is far deeper and more complex.  While American localists feel rootedness in a particular locale, German localists had long standing identifications with actual kingdoms and even tribes.  To be a Kentuckian is a matter of at most two hundred years of history.  To be a Saxon or a Thurigian is a matter of blood and millenia.  With the collapse of the Prussian led Second Reich, these ancient attachments were all German citizens had to fall back on.    As to antisemitism, ordinary Germans lived through a period of civil war after the WWI that attempted to replicate the Bolshevik Revolution, with all the attendant blood and dispossession.  They also witnessed at close hand a similar revolution in Hungary.  Jewish names and personalities were at the forefront of these fearful events.  A great many Germans lived rural lives with poor access to multiple points of view.  So it&#039;s no surprise that in a deeply divided collection of former duchies, electorships, free cities etc. people would coalesce into multiple parochial parties and movements.  Obvioiusly, America is nothing like this. 

The fear of antisemitism it seems to me flows from the belief that Jews are seen as the rootless cosmopolitans and so have no place in local polities.  An interesting assumption emerges from this.  Does Bottum assume that Jews are automatically disloyal to their localities?  And if this is so, wouldn&#039;t this be their problem rather than the localities?  The example of the Confederate Jews would seem to argue against this.  Many have pointed out that if the Jews were the original rootless cosmopolitans they are far from alone now.  The entire upper strata of our society can be said to be advancing in this direction, with globalization, adoption of international legal models, disdain for traditional American cultural norms, etc.  It&#039;s also a bit bizarre to speak of the menace of localism as antisemitism when Jews have their own localist, blood and soil experiment going on in the Middle East.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, That&#8217;s what I get for not making my point clearly.  What I referred to was not Nazism as localism, but the manner in which the early Nazi movement wooed the many localist political parties in Weimar Germany.  In the aftermath of WWI a multiplicity of particularistic parties representing peasants, regions, religions and causes sprung up.  Individual States like Bavaria even attempted to escape the Republic.  The Nazi&#8217;s were successful in appealing to these individual aspirations and vanities. eventually bringing many into the National Socialist fold.  None of these groups seems to have smelled the rat until it was much too late.</p>
<p>My point Isn&#8217;t to denigrate localism but a pedantic one, to mention at least one example of localism playing into evil hands.  This does not delegitimize the localist impulse but serves as a warning of what can happen.  </p>
<p>On the other hand, the argument that localism equates with anti-semitism can only be somewhat true.  The experience of Jews in the antibellum South is not one of repression but of tolerance.  There was a Jewish Confederate cabinet member after all.  Southern Jews of my acquaintance report that, at least until the 1960&#8242;s Jews living in southern communities were integrated into society as a community.  Shelby Foote  the late Historian of the Civil War was both a southerner and a Jew.  </p>
<p>The nexus between German localism and antisemitism is far deeper and more complex.  While American localists feel rootedness in a particular locale, German localists had long standing identifications with actual kingdoms and even tribes.  To be a Kentuckian is a matter of at most two hundred years of history.  To be a Saxon or a Thurigian is a matter of blood and millenia.  With the collapse of the Prussian led Second Reich, these ancient attachments were all German citizens had to fall back on.    As to antisemitism, ordinary Germans lived through a period of civil war after the WWI that attempted to replicate the Bolshevik Revolution, with all the attendant blood and dispossession.  They also witnessed at close hand a similar revolution in Hungary.  Jewish names and personalities were at the forefront of these fearful events.  A great many Germans lived rural lives with poor access to multiple points of view.  So it&#8217;s no surprise that in a deeply divided collection of former duchies, electorships, free cities etc. people would coalesce into multiple parochial parties and movements.  Obvioiusly, America is nothing like this. </p>
<p>The fear of antisemitism it seems to me flows from the belief that Jews are seen as the rootless cosmopolitans and so have no place in local polities.  An interesting assumption emerges from this.  Does Bottum assume that Jews are automatically disloyal to their localities?  And if this is so, wouldn&#8217;t this be their problem rather than the localities?  The example of the Confederate Jews would seem to argue against this.  Many have pointed out that if the Jews were the original rootless cosmopolitans they are far from alone now.  The entire upper strata of our society can be said to be advancing in this direction, with globalization, adoption of international legal models, disdain for traditional American cultural norms, etc.  It&#8217;s also a bit bizarre to speak of the menace of localism as antisemitism when Jews have their own localist, blood and soil experiment going on in the Middle East.</p>
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		<title>By: PomoCon&#8217;s In The Basement, Mixing Up The Medicine, Front Porch&#8217;s On The Pavement, Thinking About The Government &#171; Around The Sphere</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/comment-page-1/#comment-4920</link>
		<dc:creator>PomoCon&#8217;s In The Basement, Mixing Up The Medicine, Front Porch&#8217;s On The Pavement, Thinking About The Government &#171; Around The Sphere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/#comment-4920</guid>
		<description>[...] John Schwenkler goes [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] John Schwenkler goes [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Schwenkler</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/comment-page-1/#comment-4914</link>
		<dc:creator>John Schwenkler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/#comment-4914</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s all quite fair, Will. I think the points I wanted to make in that rather muddled comment were:

1. Obviously slavery wasn&#039;t a product of localism; indeed, it&#039;s probably best viewed as a product of &lt;em&gt;globalistic&lt;/em&gt; tendencies, depending as it did on international trade and with an eye toward greater productivity.

2. Inasmuch as racism became a defining characteristic of Southern culture, the localism that drove that was pretty degenerate, and took on many of its more angry and ideological characteristics in response to the perceived threat of Yankee hegemony.

3. It&#039;s not like non-localist sentiments have a perfect record when it comes to things like racism and anti-Semitism, either.

But perhaps we&#039;re not really in disagreement, since I&#039;m not going to deny the reality of the dangers you describe.

Also, cf. &lt;a href=&quot;http://theotherright.wordpress.com/2009/07/05/oddities-threats-loons/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this post by H.C. Johns&lt;/a&gt; on the non-prejudicial character of Minnesotan localism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s all quite fair, Will. I think the points I wanted to make in that rather muddled comment were:</p>
<p>1. Obviously slavery wasn&#8217;t a product of localism; indeed, it&#8217;s probably best viewed as a product of <em>globalistic</em> tendencies, depending as it did on international trade and with an eye toward greater productivity.</p>
<p>2. Inasmuch as racism became a defining characteristic of Southern culture, the localism that drove that was pretty degenerate, and took on many of its more angry and ideological characteristics in response to the perceived threat of Yankee hegemony.</p>
<p>3. It&#8217;s not like non-localist sentiments have a perfect record when it comes to things like racism and anti-Semitism, either.</p>
<p>But perhaps we&#8217;re not really in disagreement, since I&#8217;m not going to deny the reality of the dangers you describe.</p>
<p>Also, cf. <a href="http://theotherright.wordpress.com/2009/07/05/oddities-threats-loons/" rel="nofollow">this post by H.C. Johns</a> on the non-prejudicial character of Minnesotan localism.</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/comment-page-1/#comment-4912</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:02:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/#comment-4912</guid>
		<description>Southern racism and localism seem to have been mutually-reinforcing tendencies; the latter may not have caused the former, but it certainly contributed to a very hostile environment for black Americans. I also find it striking that Southerners came to accept institutionalized racism as part of their cultural inheritance - slavery may have been a &quot;peculiar institution,&quot; but it was our peculiar institution, gosh-darnit!

Maybe I&#039;m being unfair, but many of the characteristics we think of as necessary for decentralized self-government - reverence for local institutions, suspicion of outside interference etc. etc. - are also things that tend to make people very resistant to reform. So while localism may not cause bad things to happen, it frequently contributes to a social and political arrangement that makes effective reform very difficult. 

Maybe this is only relevant if some bad preexisting tendency becomes institutionalized. I&#039;m very sympathetic to your defense of local patriotism, but the United States&#039; unique experience with states&#039; rights and all the rest has left us with some very uncomfortable baggage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Southern racism and localism seem to have been mutually-reinforcing tendencies; the latter may not have caused the former, but it certainly contributed to a very hostile environment for black Americans. I also find it striking that Southerners came to accept institutionalized racism as part of their cultural inheritance &#8211; slavery may have been a &#8220;peculiar institution,&#8221; but it was our peculiar institution, gosh-darnit!</p>
<p>Maybe I&#8217;m being unfair, but many of the characteristics we think of as necessary for decentralized self-government &#8211; reverence for local institutions, suspicion of outside interference etc. etc. &#8211; are also things that tend to make people very resistant to reform. So while localism may not cause bad things to happen, it frequently contributes to a social and political arrangement that makes effective reform very difficult. </p>
<p>Maybe this is only relevant if some bad preexisting tendency becomes institutionalized. I&#8217;m very sympathetic to your defense of local patriotism, but the United States&#8217; unique experience with states&#8217; rights and all the rest has left us with some very uncomfortable baggage.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike at The Big Stick</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/comment-page-1/#comment-4911</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike at The Big Stick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 13:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/#comment-4911</guid>
		<description>I was talking to a group of 7th graders once about nationalism, localism and the slippery natural of loyalties. The best analogy I could come up with is one of watching two guys fight in a parking lot. What if you were told one was an American and the other was Canadian? Who do you help? What if you were told one was from your state and the other was from the state next door? Who do you help? What if you were told one was of your religion and the other was frm a different faith? Who do you help? What if one went to your high school and the other went to your rivals? Who do you help? What if one was your 3rd cousin and the other one was your 1st cousin? Who do you help?

I think often (not always) our gut will choose the more local person to help / support / pal around with. I remember in high school seeing classmates that I thought were complete jerks get into squabbles with kids from other schools after football games and feeling compelled to stand next to them just because we wore the same school name on our jackets. 

I guess the point I am clumsily trying to convey is that I agree localism is hard to ignore and often artificial. I also agree that it can be terribly destructive at times. But I don&#039;t know if &#039;over-articulated&#039; is the correct phrase. Perhaps &#039;elusive and fleeting&#039; are better?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was talking to a group of 7th graders once about nationalism, localism and the slippery natural of loyalties. The best analogy I could come up with is one of watching two guys fight in a parking lot. What if you were told one was an American and the other was Canadian? Who do you help? What if you were told one was from your state and the other was from the state next door? Who do you help? What if you were told one was of your religion and the other was frm a different faith? Who do you help? What if one went to your high school and the other went to your rivals? Who do you help? What if one was your 3rd cousin and the other one was your 1st cousin? Who do you help?</p>
<p>I think often (not always) our gut will choose the more local person to help / support / pal around with. I remember in high school seeing classmates that I thought were complete jerks get into squabbles with kids from other schools after football games and feeling compelled to stand next to them just because we wore the same school name on our jackets. </p>
<p>I guess the point I am clumsily trying to convey is that I agree localism is hard to ignore and often artificial. I also agree that it can be terribly destructive at times. But I don&#8217;t know if &#8216;over-articulated&#8217; is the correct phrase. Perhaps &#8216;elusive and fleeting&#8217; are better?</p>
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		<title>By: John Schwenkler</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/comment-page-1/#comment-4910</link>
		<dc:creator>John Schwenkler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 04:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/#comment-4910</guid>
		<description>Will: Given the history of slavery, do you really think that Southern localism can really be viewed as a &lt;em&gt;cause&lt;/em&gt; of Southern racism? It strikes me as an enabling condition, at best - though I&#039;m happy to be debated on that point.

Moreover, it seems to me that the localism of the American South is very much &quot;over-articulated&quot;, and that the attendant racism is certainly an expression of that. Obviously the question of how to keep localist sentiments from becoming excessively articulated in such ways is a challenging one.

And TM: The Nazi Germany analogy is actually what Deneen was discussing in the post I linked; his point was that Nazism was a nationalistic phenomenon, not a properly localist one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will: Given the history of slavery, do you really think that Southern localism can really be viewed as a <em>cause</em> of Southern racism? It strikes me as an enabling condition, at best &#8211; though I&#8217;m happy to be debated on that point.</p>
<p>Moreover, it seems to me that the localism of the American South is very much &#8220;over-articulated&#8221;, and that the attendant racism is certainly an expression of that. Obviously the question of how to keep localist sentiments from becoming excessively articulated in such ways is a challenging one.</p>
<p>And TM: The Nazi Germany analogy is actually what Deneen was discussing in the post I linked; his point was that Nazism was a nationalistic phenomenon, not a properly localist one.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas O. Meehan</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/comment-page-1/#comment-4909</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas O. Meehan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 04:35:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/#comment-4909</guid>
		<description>The fear of localism expressed in some quarters may have something to do with memories of how the Nazis former their movement in part by subsuming the various German volkisch parties.  In some minds a close attachment to a place or local culture or ethnicity carries with it the danger of manipulation toward unrestrained ends.  Personally, I think this is overblown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fear of localism expressed in some quarters may have something to do with memories of how the Nazis former their movement in part by subsuming the various German volkisch parties.  In some minds a close attachment to a place or local culture or ethnicity carries with it the danger of manipulation toward unrestrained ends.  Personally, I think this is overblown.</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/comment-page-1/#comment-4908</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 03:49:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/#comment-4908</guid>
		<description>I suppose I&#039;m thinking of the American South, which is home to both a robust local culture and a troubled history (to put it mildly) of race relations. Can you separate the two? I suspect that a fundamentally inward-looking polity is more prone to narrow-minded parochialism and more likely to develop unique cultural traditions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose I&#8217;m thinking of the American South, which is home to both a robust local culture and a troubled history (to put it mildly) of race relations. Can you separate the two? I suspect that a fundamentally inward-looking polity is more prone to narrow-minded parochialism and more likely to develop unique cultural traditions.</p>
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		<title>By: John Schwenkler</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/comment-page-1/#comment-4906</link>
		<dc:creator>John Schwenkler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 00:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/#comment-4906</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;... or will it narrow our horizons to such an extent that parochial close-mindedness becomes the order of the day?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I suppose I don&#039;t think that parochial closed-mindedness is &lt;em&gt;universally&lt;/em&gt; a bad thing; it all depends on its specific character. But yes, the question is a practical one, as almost ever.

&lt;blockquote&gt;... the historical record of decentralization is pretty ambiguous.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Can you elaborate? (Though by the way, I didn&#039;t really mean this post to be on the question of &lt;em&gt;political&lt;/em&gt; decentralization, but rather just about the virtues of a decentralized patriotism.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8230; or will it narrow our horizons to such an extent that parochial close-mindedness becomes the order of the day?</p></blockquote>
<p>I suppose I don&#8217;t think that parochial closed-mindedness is <em>universally</em> a bad thing; it all depends on its specific character. But yes, the question is a practical one, as almost ever.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230; the historical record of decentralization is pretty ambiguous.</p></blockquote>
<p>Can you elaborate? (Though by the way, I didn&#8217;t really mean this post to be on the question of <em>political</em> decentralization, but rather just about the virtues of a decentralized patriotism.)</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/comment-page-1/#comment-4905</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 23:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/schwenkler/2009/07/05/a-few-thoughts-on-patriotism-and-localism/#comment-4905</guid>
		<description>So then the question becomes a practical one, right? Will decentralization yield shared loyalties to &quot;overlapping or non-overlapping groups, communities, or institutions,&quot; or will it narrow our horizons to such an extent that parochial close-mindedness becomes the order of the day? It&#039;s all well and good to speak of &quot;localism, rightly understood&quot; (or something to that effect), but the historical record of decentralization is pretty ambiguous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So then the question becomes a practical one, right? Will decentralization yield shared loyalties to &#8220;overlapping or non-overlapping groups, communities, or institutions,&#8221; or will it narrow our horizons to such an extent that parochial close-mindedness becomes the order of the day? It&#8217;s all well and good to speak of &#8220;localism, rightly understood&#8221; (or something to that effect), but the historical record of decentralization is pretty ambiguous.</p>
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