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	<title>Comments on: Elites And Grassroots</title>
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	<description>n. the principle of good order&#60;br /&#62;&#60;br /&#62; "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
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		<title>By: gas28man</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/09/09/elites-and-grassroots/comment-page-1/#comment-33788</link>
		<dc:creator>gas28man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:46:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=10104#comment-33788</guid>
		<description>@nyx, I honestly don&#039;t see how you get to the idea that the healthcare bill will require an insane amount of money.  Even the most generous estimates go no higher than $120 billion a year -- about what we spend on the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns.  And here&#039;s the big difference: no one ever promised to fund Iraq and Afghanistan with cuts from elsewhere, or new taxation.  They were all funded with borrowing from foreign sources, and until Obama took office, they were not even in the budget.  Putting Iraq and Afghanistan in the budget this year is one of the big reasons, along with the stimulus and reduced revenues from unemployment and property devaluation, that our deficits climbed so high.

The administration has given a full-throated pledge not to fund healthcare with deficit spending.  You&#039;re free to not believe this, and you&#039;re welcome to your misgivings about the capabilities of Summers and Geithner (I have my own, too).  But clearly Obama has taken responsibility, with no weasel-words or qualifying terms, for delivering a healthcare bill that is revenue neutral.  If he fails at that, he won&#039;t be able to dodge the consequences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@nyx, I honestly don&#8217;t see how you get to the idea that the healthcare bill will require an insane amount of money.  Even the most generous estimates go no higher than $120 billion a year &#8212; about what we spend on the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns.  And here&#8217;s the big difference: no one ever promised to fund Iraq and Afghanistan with cuts from elsewhere, or new taxation.  They were all funded with borrowing from foreign sources, and until Obama took office, they were not even in the budget.  Putting Iraq and Afghanistan in the budget this year is one of the big reasons, along with the stimulus and reduced revenues from unemployment and property devaluation, that our deficits climbed so high.</p>
<p>The administration has given a full-throated pledge not to fund healthcare with deficit spending.  You&#8217;re free to not believe this, and you&#8217;re welcome to your misgivings about the capabilities of Summers and Geithner (I have my own, too).  But clearly Obama has taken responsibility, with no weasel-words or qualifying terms, for delivering a healthcare bill that is revenue neutral.  If he fails at that, he won&#8217;t be able to dodge the consequences.</p>
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		<title>By: nyx</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/09/09/elites-and-grassroots/comment-page-1/#comment-33786</link>
		<dc:creator>nyx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=10104#comment-33786</guid>
		<description>&quot;I have always thought the Democratic effort to pass Health Care reform was doomed from the start…..too many in the party are just scared spitless of being tarred with the socialist brush. They will refuse to act until the country is actually faced with a real disaster.&quot;

I think its mistaken to say that Democrats are afraid to be socialists but it is fair to say that a lot of the democrats who are elected represent conservative/middle of the road districts that don&#039;t want too much &quot;change&quot;. This is true especially in recently blue states and now liable to going red like Virginia. 

&quot;That last applies with equal or greater force to the deficit/debt...Our creditors will start calling more and more of the shots as we did to Britain when we held their leash in the Suez Crisis.&quot;

I am afraid what you are saying here is quite liable to be true. The true problem with the Healthcare bill introduced is that it is going to require insane amount of money and we are unfortunately quite broke. I think a lot of the opposition is based on the &quot;What are we spending on when we are so broke&quot; principle. And Summers and Geithner on Obama&#039;s team hardly inspire confidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I have always thought the Democratic effort to pass Health Care reform was doomed from the start…..too many in the party are just scared spitless of being tarred with the socialist brush. They will refuse to act until the country is actually faced with a real disaster.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think its mistaken to say that Democrats are afraid to be socialists but it is fair to say that a lot of the democrats who are elected represent conservative/middle of the road districts that don&#8217;t want too much &#8220;change&#8221;. This is true especially in recently blue states and now liable to going red like Virginia. </p>
<p>&#8220;That last applies with equal or greater force to the deficit/debt&#8230;Our creditors will start calling more and more of the shots as we did to Britain when we held their leash in the Suez Crisis.&#8221;</p>
<p>I am afraid what you are saying here is quite liable to be true. The true problem with the Healthcare bill introduced is that it is going to require insane amount of money and we are unfortunately quite broke. I think a lot of the opposition is based on the &#8220;What are we spending on when we are so broke&#8221; principle. And Summers and Geithner on Obama&#8217;s team hardly inspire confidence.</p>
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		<title>By: jetan</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/09/09/elites-and-grassroots/comment-page-1/#comment-33785</link>
		<dc:creator>jetan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 13:29:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=10104#comment-33785</guid>
		<description>I know the Republicans have some proposals (Henke listed a couple which would be as difficult to pass as the nuttiest Democratic idea) but none of them really accomplish either one of the alleged goals of the effort, i.e, something resembling universal coverage coupled with a sharp reduction in cost. Actually I think Obama has listened to them too much as part of his general worship of High-Broderism.

I have always thought the Democratic effort to pass Health Care reform was doomed from the start.....too many in the party are just scared spitless of being tarred with the socialist brush. They will refuse to act until the country is actually faced with a real disaster.

That last applies with equal or greater force to the deficit/debt. The world will quietly go off of the dollar as a reserve currency and the Times and the WSJ will produce articles saying that reserve currencies don&#039;t matter as much these days. Count on it. They will sound like the manager in Spinal Tap saying that &quot;Boston&#039;s not a big college town.&quot; Our creditors will start calling more and more of the shots as we did to Britain when we held their leash in the Suez Crisis.

As to Iran, I don&#039;t think there is anything left to botch. We have been botching it for decades and our failure there has truly been a bipartisan effort. They are going to go nuclear. There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then maybe, just maybe, we will stop trying to play that region like we have an inside straight in our hand.

I agree that, though the GOP is currently barking mad, they can hardly fail to pick up a significant number of seats in 2010. Unfortunately this will only confirm for them that they are on the right track.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know the Republicans have some proposals (Henke listed a couple which would be as difficult to pass as the nuttiest Democratic idea) but none of them really accomplish either one of the alleged goals of the effort, i.e, something resembling universal coverage coupled with a sharp reduction in cost. Actually I think Obama has listened to them too much as part of his general worship of High-Broderism.</p>
<p>I have always thought the Democratic effort to pass Health Care reform was doomed from the start&#8230;..too many in the party are just scared spitless of being tarred with the socialist brush. They will refuse to act until the country is actually faced with a real disaster.</p>
<p>That last applies with equal or greater force to the deficit/debt. The world will quietly go off of the dollar as a reserve currency and the Times and the WSJ will produce articles saying that reserve currencies don&#8217;t matter as much these days. Count on it. They will sound like the manager in Spinal Tap saying that &#8220;Boston&#8217;s not a big college town.&#8221; Our creditors will start calling more and more of the shots as we did to Britain when we held their leash in the Suez Crisis.</p>
<p>As to Iran, I don&#8217;t think there is anything left to botch. We have been botching it for decades and our failure there has truly been a bipartisan effort. They are going to go nuclear. There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then maybe, just maybe, we will stop trying to play that region like we have an inside straight in our hand.</p>
<p>I agree that, though the GOP is currently barking mad, they can hardly fail to pick up a significant number of seats in 2010. Unfortunately this will only confirm for them that they are on the right track.</p>
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		<title>By: nyx</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/09/09/elites-and-grassroots/comment-page-1/#comment-33784</link>
		<dc:creator>nyx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 00:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=10104#comment-33784</guid>
		<description>&quot;I won’t even bother picking on the GOP’s barren health care position….it’s too easy to tear into…..but how about at least asking them to define our goal in Afghanistan? It’s not enough to point out that the Democrats don’t know what they are doing either. They need to articulate a goal and, if they cannot, explain how we are going to gracefully withdraw.&quot;

jetan.

They are just the opposition party at the moment, that too, completely powerless and without teeth. They do have alternative proposals in health care (which the senators were waving around furiously during Obama&#039;s big speech) but Obama has not been in any mood to listen nor has the progressive left. As you very well know.

A better question would be why has the Democratic Party been so incompetent that it is botching up the healthcare debate so badly? Not just healthcare, but the deficit, even Iran? The GOP has to do nothing at this point. They can be as wild and crazy and insane but I still expect them to win in 2010.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I won’t even bother picking on the GOP’s barren health care position….it’s too easy to tear into…..but how about at least asking them to define our goal in Afghanistan? It’s not enough to point out that the Democrats don’t know what they are doing either. They need to articulate a goal and, if they cannot, explain how we are going to gracefully withdraw.&#8221;</p>
<p>jetan.</p>
<p>They are just the opposition party at the moment, that too, completely powerless and without teeth. They do have alternative proposals in health care (which the senators were waving around furiously during Obama&#8217;s big speech) but Obama has not been in any mood to listen nor has the progressive left. As you very well know.</p>
<p>A better question would be why has the Democratic Party been so incompetent that it is botching up the healthcare debate so badly? Not just healthcare, but the deficit, even Iran? The GOP has to do nothing at this point. They can be as wild and crazy and insane but I still expect them to win in 2010.</p>
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		<title>By: Norwegian Shooter</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/09/09/elites-and-grassroots/comment-page-1/#comment-33781</link>
		<dc:creator>Norwegian Shooter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 19:55:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=10104#comment-33781</guid>
		<description>Great analysis, as only an outsider can give. It prompts this outsider question from me: does your political philosophy, or something near it, have any grassroots at all? Does that matter to you at all?

Even the libertarians can get a crowd together. Although not from outside reasonable driving distance: did you see any FreedomFest 09 on CSPAN 2? You could shoot a gun off in the room and not hit anybody - but you&#039;d still kill a couple of heart-attacks-waiting-to-happen. I think they did a casting call for Grumpy Old White Men.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great analysis, as only an outsider can give. It prompts this outsider question from me: does your political philosophy, or something near it, have any grassroots at all? Does that matter to you at all?</p>
<p>Even the libertarians can get a crowd together. Although not from outside reasonable driving distance: did you see any FreedomFest 09 on CSPAN 2? You could shoot a gun off in the room and not hit anybody &#8211; but you&#8217;d still kill a couple of heart-attacks-waiting-to-happen. I think they did a casting call for Grumpy Old White Men.</p>
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		<title>By: jetan</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/09/09/elites-and-grassroots/comment-page-1/#comment-33780</link>
		<dc:creator>jetan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 19:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=10104#comment-33780</guid>
		<description>This is all very persuasive, except for the notion that the current GOP elites have actual policy prescriptions. I see nothing.....absolutely nothing.....in terms of foreign, monetary, fiscal or health policy. I suppose there are still a few hardy, unreconstructed souls that would, in their heart of hearts, prefer to wind down Medicare or Social Security. But, in terms of a credible, politically saleable proposal, that ship has sailed has it not?

I won&#039;t even bother picking on the GOP&#039;s barren health care position....it&#039;s too easy to tear into.....but how about at least asking them to define our goal in Afghanistan? It&#039;s not enough to point out that the Democrats don&#039;t know what they are doing either. They need to articulate a goal and, if they cannot, explain how we are going to gracefully withdraw.

One doesn&#039;t necessarily expect the grassroots to do this kind of heavy  policy lifting but the so-called moderate elites a la Douthat and Frum are not exactly covering themselves with glory either.

Actually, you and your fellow travelers here at TAC could probably be invaluable in contriving counter-positions on some of this stuff. In fact. it will have to be someone like you guys because with every passing day it becomes clearer that the titular policy figureheads at National Review, Heritage Foundation, or Weekly Standard have absolutely nothing to say.

Henke and Ruffini at least deserve some credit for being willing to put their face out there to be punched. The Republican Party made this deal with the grassroots a long time ago and assumed that they could always keep the unwashed under control. It&#039;s turning out to be a bad bet. Today&#039;s &quot;conservative&quot; grassroots are masters of old school, 1971, Yippie-style street theatre. And we know how that urned out for the Democratic Party. The conservative policy positions do have to be concocted, but first someone has to take the public face of the party back or the policies will just be drowned out by the noise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is all very persuasive, except for the notion that the current GOP elites have actual policy prescriptions. I see nothing&#8230;..absolutely nothing&#8230;..in terms of foreign, monetary, fiscal or health policy. I suppose there are still a few hardy, unreconstructed souls that would, in their heart of hearts, prefer to wind down Medicare or Social Security. But, in terms of a credible, politically saleable proposal, that ship has sailed has it not?</p>
<p>I won&#8217;t even bother picking on the GOP&#8217;s barren health care position&#8230;.it&#8217;s too easy to tear into&#8230;..but how about at least asking them to define our goal in Afghanistan? It&#8217;s not enough to point out that the Democrats don&#8217;t know what they are doing either. They need to articulate a goal and, if they cannot, explain how we are going to gracefully withdraw.</p>
<p>One doesn&#8217;t necessarily expect the grassroots to do this kind of heavy  policy lifting but the so-called moderate elites a la Douthat and Frum are not exactly covering themselves with glory either.</p>
<p>Actually, you and your fellow travelers here at TAC could probably be invaluable in contriving counter-positions on some of this stuff. In fact. it will have to be someone like you guys because with every passing day it becomes clearer that the titular policy figureheads at National Review, Heritage Foundation, or Weekly Standard have absolutely nothing to say.</p>
<p>Henke and Ruffini at least deserve some credit for being willing to put their face out there to be punched. The Republican Party made this deal with the grassroots a long time ago and assumed that they could always keep the unwashed under control. It&#8217;s turning out to be a bad bet. Today&#8217;s &#8220;conservative&#8221; grassroots are masters of old school, 1971, Yippie-style street theatre. And we know how that urned out for the Democratic Party. The conservative policy positions do have to be concocted, but first someone has to take the public face of the party back or the policies will just be drowned out by the noise.</p>
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