No End To The Madness
Via Isaac Chotiner, I see that Biden’s WSJ interview wasn’t the only place where he said inflammatory and stupid things about Russia. The NYT reports:
At the gathering with displaced Georgian children from South Ossetia, Mr. Biden saved his harshest words for Russia.
He said he believed that Moscow “used a pretext to invade your country,” [bold mine-DL] weighing in confidently on the question of whether Mr. Saakashvili should be blamed for ordering the Aug. 7 shelling of Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital. He said Russia had paid dearly for invading Georgia, arguing that “all the countries that surround them are now saying very harsh things to Russia.” [bold mine-DL] He promised the children that the United States would press Russia to comply with the French-brokered cease-fire agreement, and that if they continued to defy it, “it is a problem for them.”
He noted the largess of Americans — “they said, ‘It’s O.K., take my money, raise my taxes’ ”[bold mine-DL] — in pledging $1 billion in aid to Georgia after the war.
“You should understand, America cares about you, cares about you personally [bold mine-DL],” Mr. Biden said. “We care about all of you, and we’re not going to leave you. It’s a hard journey, but we’re not going away.”
Well, there’s no “preemptive declinism” to be found here, that’s for sure! We knew that Biden was a hawk and was embarrassingly pro-Georgian during the August war, going so far as to visit Saakashvili that same month, and it was already clear how meaningless all of this “reset” talk was. Even so, I don’t know of any American politician other than McCain who has been so reckless and ideological in his statements about last summer’s war in Georgia. This can’t be written off simply as Biden’s normal idiocy. He was representing the administration on a major trip overseas, and this trip seems to have been calculated to serve as an insult and warning to Moscow based on Biden’s itinerary and his public remarks.
To take Biden’s claims in order, his claim about the Russian invasion is true only if by “pretext” he meant the Georgian government’s decision to escalate some small border disputes into full-scale war. It is worth noting that the ethnic Georgians who were unfortunately expelled from South Ossetia have not lived under Tbilisi’s authority for almost twenty years. There were probably not any children in the audience old enough to remember a time when South Ossetia was meaningfully part of Georgia. That doesn’t mean that they and their parents don’t think of it as part of Georgia, but it does draw our attention to an important distinction between the claims of the Georgian governmen and the political realities of the region. It also serves as a useful reminder that South Ossetia’s inclusion as part of Georgia is something relatively very recent and artificial. It has less history as part of Georgia than South Tyrol does as part of Italy. Correction: These statements were inaccurate. What is now South Ossetia does have a pre-tsarist history of inclusion as part of the kingdom of Georgia. I apologize for the error.
Russia’s neighbors are all saying “very harsh” things, Biden told the audience, but it is Georgia whose economy lies in ruins and whose people have been displaced by the tens of thousands. I don’t know what the political leanings of the refugees are, but you would think the victims of a crisis created by Saakashvili would be very hostile to the government that plunged them into their present predicament. Americans probably think $1 billion dollars spent on Georgia is $1 billion we don’t have for our own needs and under present circumstances even $1 billion, which is nothing in the grand scheme of the federal budget, is more than we can afford to waste as a show of goodwill. I would be fascinated to see the poll that shows how Americans are excited to have their taxes raised to subsidize an economic basketcase country ruled by a bellicose, authoritarian demagogue. Luckily for the Georgians, most Americans have already forgotten that Georgia exists and so will not be concerned that any of their money is being wasted there, but that drives home the final point, which is that Americans don’t care about Georgia. If the “hard journey” ahead was explained to them, they would probably be even less interested in aiding Georgia.
As Chotiner mentions at the end of his post, this is the sort of reckless rhetoric of support that could encourage Georgians to expect U.S. backing in a future confrontation, which would set them up for another deeply disillusioning fall. It is the kind of rhetoric from which the administration correctly refrained in Iran. It is also exactly the kind of reckless rhetoric of support that encouraged Saakashvili to make his disastrous blunders last year. If our officials continue to use this rhetoric even after everything Saakashvili has done, what would it take for our government to learn that unflagging solidarity with a state of marginal importance on Russia’s doorstep is very dangerous and contributes to a heightening of tensions between Russia and Georgia?
I sometimes think that the so-called “pro-Georgian” politicians and pundits won’t be satisfied until Georgia has been occupied and annexed by Russia, because their sympathy for Georgia mostly has nothing to do with the well-being or independence of Georgia and has everything to do with providing an example of Russian “revisionism” that they can use to justify an anti-Russian stance. How else can we explain the continued support for the Georgian government’s most self-destructive behavior? How else can we explain the continued provocations that are making tensions in the region worse rather than defusing them? Real concern for Georgia and the welfare of its people would dictate that we stop using the country as bait to lure Russia into another international incident, but the “freedom agenda” and support for Saakashvili never had much to do with what was best for Georgia.
I understand that Mr. Larison has to be productive (economic crisis) and write quickly and A LOT, but I believe professionalism requires at least a little bid of reading (oh no, no books, just wikipedia: google for Samachablo – a historic name for so called South Ossetia).
Other than that, the artcile is OK
The article is absolutely wrong. When the “reset” thing fails (and it already does) the Americans will be proud that there were people like Mr. Biden in the US administration. As far as the American-Russian relationships are concerned I believe that one day the Americans will understand that Bush wasn’t a problem. The problem was Putin. Good relationships with Russia take people like Yeltsin in Kremlin, it doesn’t much matter who’s in the White House. As a Russian I find author’s understanding of the war in Georgia and Caucasus laughable. Not professional at all. Thanks god there are people like Mr. Biden that know and understand a lot more.
You are not russian, you are bandera’s pig …
tr is right, I also agree with the article, but we always need to look into history books, google at least.
Well, Bandera WAS Russian. The fact that you don’t know about it and that you call yourself “vladnick” suggests that you are a descendant of those Tatars that stole the name. And I forgive you your rudeness… Would not do it if I could see you in person.
Why, Putin ordered and supervised mass killing of Chechen people. Over a hundred thousand of Chechens, mostly civilians, had been killed by the Russians in the same region just a few years ago. The number had been confirmed by reputable international organizations. It seems that Daniel Larison has forgotten all about it. The Russian government also had no problems with the Turks pounding Kurdistan. They didn’t say a word about it and here we see such “un-Russian” humanitarian concerns in S. Ossetia. Medvedev, Putin and Lavrov deliberately mislead the international community by speaking about 4 000 killed in the conflict. Less than 100 had been confirmed by international organizations. Nevertheless Medvedev called it “genocide” of S. Obsidians who are not exactly saints either. During the Russian assault on Georgia they engaged in looting and rape and the Russians were simply looking on and covering it up. One must remember that most members of Russian government are former KGB agents and how important disinformation was for this organization. The Russians occupied internationally recognized Georgian territory. “Genocide” of S. Ossetians proved to be a lie. The lie was used as a pretext for a land grab. I believe that Medvedev, Putin and Lavrov are criminals and that they must be prosecuted for war crimes. They need to control the Caucuses to maintain their monopoly on natural gas. Why would any American or European want to provide them with any assistance?
I would love it if Russia and the US had good relationships but I don’t think that anyone is going to benefit from making deals with those who so many believe are a bunch of criminals running Russia now. Except the criminals themselves of cause.
Hear, hear. Hear the persons like Biden and Vivanchenko!
Observe their pure unmitigated hatred for Russians.
Behold the only weapon of theirs – lie.
“you are a descendant of those Tatars that stole the name” -
http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf is an answer.
And what’s wrong to be Tatar?
“Why, Putin ordered and supervised mass killing of Chechen people. Over a hundred thousand of Chechens, mostly civilians, had been killed by the Russians in the same region just a few years ago. The number had been confirmed by reputable international organizations” –
Here an attempt to assign Russians as the only wrongdoers conveniently forgetting about another side of this conflict, mixing true and false, not mentioning “de facto” independence 1996-1999 which was similar to Taliban’s rule in Afghanistan, slavery, abductions, the reasons beyond the second war and so on. You’re not an unbiased judge, mister!
“Medvedev, Putin and Lavrov deliberately mislead the international community by speaking about 4 000 killed in the conflict. Less than 100 had been confirmed by international organizations” -
I will not argue about figures… How many victims you need to be satisfied?!
I’m far from being Russian State apologist. Wrong is wrong. But hate makes one’s mind blind.
securepavement:
“And what’s wrong to be Tatar?” It’s absolutely OK to be Tatar, stilling identity is wrong.
I’m perfectly aware of what nationalities you come across in places like Kiev and Moscow. I’d be looking for descendants of Russians in Kiev and Chernigov and for descendants of the Tatars and Mongols in Moscow and Kazan. Simply because they settled in that area. And the area was not called Russia or Russ before then. What do you think is the origin of the famous saying: “rub a Russian and you will find a Tatar”?. For instance, Vladimir Nabokov’s ancestors were Mongols (nabuk is a Mongol word) and he was proud of it. Don’t see how the information that you provided contradicts to any of my earlier statements and where did I lie. Could you be more specific, please?
It looks like you feel comfortable about the Russians killing over a hundred thousands of Chechen separatists, the Sri Lankans killing about 20 000, the Turks killing thousands of the Kurds. You did not express any concerns about all those horrors. But you seem to be outraged at Georgians killing during an anti-separatist operation a hundred of separatists. Why? The Georgians did the same thing that the Russians, the Turks and the Sri Lankans did with a whole lot less bloodshed. Well, I think that your sense of justice is strangely twisted. Very much so.
correction:”…stealing identity is wrong”.
And how can I hate the Russians if I AM ethnic Russian? I was born in Kiev and all of my ancestors and grandparents were born in Kiev, Kiev region and Belorussia. And the Russians (all of them, no matter if their identity was stolen or not) call Kiev “the mother of Russian cities”. I also feel absolutely comfortable with the country that is called Russia today (no pun intended). I simply believe that many of its current leaders are criminals. Including Putin, Medvedev and Lavrov.
>It’s absolutely OK to be Tatar, stilling identity is wrong.
Certainly I can be more specific. The reference I gave destroy you myth based dumb down view Russians as some kind of Fins, Turks, Mongols etc.
>It looks like you feel comfortable about the Russians killing over a hundred thousands of Chechen separatists, the Sri Lankans killing about 20 000, the Turks killing thousands of the Kurds.
The war is a nasty thing and if a political group chooses the way of terror refuting peace they should be aware of the consequences it would incur.
>And how can I hate the Russians if I AM ethnic Russian?
Oh, it’s nothing new. The most enraged Jew hater could have a Jew roots. Russophobes are no different. The most prominent of them are Russians. So, you’re not unique.
Btw, no one of them call oneself Russophobe. :)
I wonder what kind of a guy (or a girl) Vi-ko is? I think that Sec-nt is wrong in his attempt to agrue with Vi-ko about validity of any “facts” Vi-ko is bringing in mass from mass-media to prove his points. Dear Sec-nt, your are wasting your valuable time and energy for nothing since there is nobody on the other side listening.
But Vi-ko’s main arguement – “Putin/Medvedev/Lavrov are criminals” – really got me. I worked in Moscow in 2001-2005 and then in Kiev in 2005-2006 and had to get in touch with many people whose names were in newsprint. Both in Moscow and in Kiev. Hence a question to Vi-ko: P/M/L should be called “criminals” how we should call people who are governing Ukraine nowadays? And who were those who ran “the mother of Russian cities” when it was the one? Now who is the judge to fingerpoint “criminals” around us?
A huge draw of Internet that it brought to the surface a lot of different people. As always most of them are morons.
Dear Russian Jew, I have read carefully securepavement’s 4:12 comment. A also read your comment just as carefully. I wonder why everyone who calls himself Russian is so rude? Is this some kind of catching disease? Anyway, I find you rezoning not convincing. Your statement that Putin, Medvedev and Lavrov cannot be criminals because you spent 4 years in Moscow and 1 year in Kiev is … well, I shall be polite, not convincing. Can you give us more substance, please. I , for one, believe that the Russian leaders are criminals because they were directly and indirectly involved in following crimes : killing of at least 50 000 civilians, mostly kids and women in Chechnya, numerous kidnappings throughout entire Caucuses, killing of Anna Politkovskaia, killing of Natalia Estimirova, killing of Alexandr Litvininko, killing of Artem Borovik, and blowing up apartment buildings in Volgodonsk.
You seem to imply that Yuschenko is a criminal too. What exactly in your opinion incriminates Yuschenko?
And speaking of Kiev and the people who ran it. Interesting, what do you know about them? For instance, who do you think brought Christianity to Russia?
Dear Dr. Larison,
1. I would like to thank you for an attempt to be realistic – I wonder whether Mr. Biden’s speechwriters used to work for Mrs Rice a year ago. I mean these exact expressions (during her visit to Georgia in July, 2008) when she claimed that prosperity of young Georgian democracy would be a key argument for South Ossetia and Abkhazia to be again a part of this state.
Obviously, both nations need slightly more than “free market” or economic welfare of Georgia to “return” – to start with they need to forget the consequences of the criminal and fascist regime of President Gamsakhurdia.
2. “These statements were inaccurate. What is now South Ossetia does have a pre-tsarist history of inclusion as part of the kingdom of Georgia” – in case you are really in this topic I may forward you the links to the copies of historic documents from the Federal Archive where the Kingdom Of Georgia included five provinces, neither South Ossetia nor Abkhazia amid. This territory had remained unchanged until the revolution of 1917 when new communist authorities marked the borders and split some regions as you could find them until 1989. Historically, South Ossetia’s inclusion as part of Georgia is indeed something relatively very recent and artificial. You had no reasons to apologize (as I said – historical documents are easy to find, translation from Russian, if necessary, is the least problem).