Comments on: Culture And Nature http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/03/28/culture-and-nature/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=culture-and-nature n. the principle of good order<br /><br /> "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman Fri, 10 Feb 2012 02:25:26 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: jetan http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/03/28/culture-and-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-31198 jetan Sun, 29 Mar 2009 09:28:02 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9032#comment-31198 Just to clarify further, to the extent that the Taliban has any national goal in Afghanistan it is to extinguish national identity rather than to develop it. Nationalism is a serious barrier to their vision of a renewed and resurgent Caliphate. Just to clarify further, to the extent that the Taliban has any national goal in Afghanistan it is to extinguish national identity rather than to develop it. Nationalism is a serious barrier to their vision of a renewed and resurgent Caliphate.

]]> By: jetan http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/03/28/culture-and-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-31197 jetan Sun, 29 Mar 2009 08:12:53 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9032#comment-31197 shoebill, with all due respect, Afghanistan is the veritable contemporary epitome of a tribal society. It was tribal before the British came and it will remain tribal after we leave. Didn't we already learn the lessons on this over the course of a whole gory year of trying to pacify Tikrit? To concentrate on the Islamic coloration of the society is to risk missing the forest for the trees. Apostasy can be forgiven at times, but tribal loyalty is family. There is NO state in Afghanistan. Even the Taliban couldn't do that, not that they wanted to create one. There is a collection of tribes and localities. Law enforcement, to the limited extent that it exists at all and depending on how one defines it, its strictly a matter of local authority. The Taliban is fine with that. Their aspirations are brutal, but realistic. They could give a c*** whether they create an "Afghani" identity or not. Karzai's government has little power beyond a narrow ability to sometimes extort within a small geographic area. Do you really think they care what edicts get passed down from Kabul over in the Khyber Pass or in any other part of the horribly huge and permeable border with Pakistan? Our best, quickest way out would be to cut some selective deals with powerful and stable tribally oriented warlords, give them tons of cash, guns and respect, stop screwing with their heroin trade, and split. And then pray. That would be the kind of deeply cynical stuff that wouldn't please Kaplan, Brooks or Kristol. But it's the smart play. Then again, I "withdrew into realism" quite a while back. I have no clue as to what to do about Pakistan which, if we aren't careful, will be the whole problem soon. shoebill, with all due respect, Afghanistan is the veritable contemporary epitome of a tribal society. It was tribal before the British came and it will remain tribal after we leave. Didn’t we already learn the lessons on this over the course of a whole gory year of trying to pacify Tikrit? To concentrate on the Islamic coloration of the society is to risk missing the forest for the trees. Apostasy can be forgiven at times, but tribal loyalty is family.

There is NO state in Afghanistan. Even the Taliban couldn’t do that, not that they wanted to create one. There is a collection of tribes and localities. Law enforcement, to the limited extent that it exists at all and depending on how one defines it, its strictly a matter of local authority. The Taliban is fine with that. Their aspirations are brutal, but realistic. They could give a c*** whether they create an “Afghani” identity or not. Karzai’s government has little power beyond a narrow ability to sometimes extort within a small geographic area. Do you really think they care what edicts get passed down from Kabul over in the Khyber Pass or in any other part of the horribly huge and permeable border with Pakistan?

Our best, quickest way out would be to cut some selective deals with powerful and stable tribally oriented warlords, give them tons of cash, guns and respect, stop screwing with their heroin trade, and split. And then pray.

That would be the kind of deeply cynical stuff that wouldn’t please Kaplan, Brooks or Kristol. But it’s the smart play. Then again, I “withdrew into realism” quite a while back.

I have no clue as to what to do about Pakistan which, if we aren’t careful, will be the whole problem soon.

]]> By: shoebill http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/03/28/culture-and-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-31196 shoebill Sun, 29 Mar 2009 05:06:57 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9032#comment-31196 Afghanistan wasn't a "traditional tribal society" before the U.S. invasion and won't be after the U.S. leaves. Before the invasion it was a theocratic dictatorship ruled by a movement that originated in Pakistani refugee camps where traditional Afghan social structures had been obliterated. At the moment the options for after the U.S. departure look to be either a return to that dictatorship or, if they're very lucky, an extremely corrupt quasi-democratic state (but not so democratic that you can't still be sentenced to death for criticizing the Koran). I don't know if Afghanistan can be moldeld into a "post-modern managerial democracy," but that's what the Afghans would prefer; Karzai's terrible kleptocratic government enjoys much more popular support than the Taliban. Afghanistan wasn’t a “traditional tribal society” before the U.S. invasion and won’t be after the U.S. leaves. Before the invasion it was a theocratic dictatorship ruled by a movement that originated in Pakistani refugee camps where traditional Afghan social structures had been obliterated. At the moment the options for after the U.S. departure look to be either a return to that dictatorship or, if they’re very lucky, an extremely corrupt quasi-democratic state (but not so democratic that you can’t still be sentenced to death for criticizing the Koran). I don’t know if Afghanistan can be moldeld into a “post-modern managerial democracy,” but that’s what the Afghans would prefer; Karzai’s terrible kleptocratic government enjoys much more popular support than the Taliban.

]]> By: ronbeas http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/03/28/culture-and-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-31188 ronbeas Sat, 28 Mar 2009 19:25:47 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9032#comment-31188 Thank you for that - excellent! Thank you for that – excellent!

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