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	<title>Comments on: Politicizing Art</title>
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	<description>n. the principle of good order&#60;br /&#62;&#60;br /&#62; "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
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		<title>By: jfxgillis</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/02/11/politicizing-art/comment-page-1/#comment-30236</link>
		<dc:creator>jfxgillis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 13:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8391#comment-30236</guid>
		<description>taxman:

Oh! &quot;Falling Down&quot; is a most excellent choice. 

For a Western, I&#039;d suggest &quot;Young Guns&quot; as the most accurate portrayal of Big Government in league with Capital destroying the small freeholder-agrarian way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>taxman:</p>
<p>Oh! &#8220;Falling Down&#8221; is a most excellent choice. </p>
<p>For a Western, I&#8217;d suggest &#8220;Young Guns&#8221; as the most accurate portrayal of Big Government in league with Capital destroying the small freeholder-agrarian way.</p>
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		<title>By: taxman10m</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/02/11/politicizing-art/comment-page-1/#comment-30231</link>
		<dc:creator>taxman10m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 02:33:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8391#comment-30231</guid>
		<description>I wasn&#039;t jesting.  I would hope that people here could name a few.  The NR list is pathetic.  Most of the movies are blockbusters and for a list comprising the past 25 years most movies on the list are fairly recent.  And since presumably we are speaking of &lt;i&gt;American&lt;/i&gt; conservatism, I found it odd that their list contained none of the movies about the Civil War that came out in the past 25 years or any Westerns.  Looking through my Netflix queue I&#039;d throw these onto a list:

Falling Down
Gettysburg along with Gods &amp; Generals (as one since they were part I and II of a trilogy that never saw completion)
Bright Young Things
Shadowlands</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wasn&#8217;t jesting.  I would hope that people here could name a few.  The NR list is pathetic.  Most of the movies are blockbusters and for a list comprising the past 25 years most movies on the list are fairly recent.  And since presumably we are speaking of <i>American</i> conservatism, I found it odd that their list contained none of the movies about the Civil War that came out in the past 25 years or any Westerns.  Looking through my Netflix queue I&#8217;d throw these onto a list:</p>
<p>Falling Down<br />
Gettysburg along with Gods &amp; Generals (as one since they were part I and II of a trilogy that never saw completion)<br />
Bright Young Things<br />
Shadowlands</p>
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		<title>By: jfxgillis</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/02/11/politicizing-art/comment-page-1/#comment-30229</link>
		<dc:creator>jfxgillis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 01:37:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8391#comment-30229</guid>
		<description>Derek:

You jest, but if you read my essay, you&#039;ll see that you aren&#039;t that far from the truth.

taxman:

Paleocons actually could make a list of films that that had artistic merit and thematic depth. George McCartney at Chronicles is fine film critic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derek:</p>
<p>You jest, but if you read my essay, you&#8217;ll see that you aren&#8217;t that far from the truth.</p>
<p>taxman:</p>
<p>Paleocons actually could make a list of films that that had artistic merit and thematic depth. George McCartney at Chronicles is fine film critic.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek Copold</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/02/11/politicizing-art/comment-page-1/#comment-30226</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek Copold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 20:53:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8391#comment-30226</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Easy Rider&lt;/i&gt;, because of its optimistic ending.

Sorry, I couldn&#039;t resist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Easy Rider</i>, because of its optimistic ending.</p>
<p>Sorry, I couldn&#8217;t resist.</p>
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		<title>By: taxman10m</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/02/11/politicizing-art/comment-page-1/#comment-30225</link>
		<dc:creator>taxman10m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 20:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8391#comment-30225</guid>
		<description>What would be some of the movies on the list of top 25 paleocon movies of the past 25 years?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What would be some of the movies on the list of top 25 paleocon movies of the past 25 years?</p>
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		<title>By: Derek Copold</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/02/11/politicizing-art/comment-page-1/#comment-30224</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek Copold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 20:06:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8391#comment-30224</guid>
		<description>Give the boys at NRO time enough and &lt;i&gt;Mission to Moscow&lt;/i&gt; will make the list. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_to_Moscow

They&#039;ll say something like, 

&quot;That Ambassador Davies was clear sighted enough to understand the threat implied by wreckers and counter-revolutionary saboteurs shows that Walter Huston would have been with us in this our War on Terror!  Also, Davies&#039; refusal to buy into the apologies for Finland remind us of the importance of holding seemingly non-involved regimes like Iraq equally responsible for their involvement with Al Qaeda.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Give the boys at NRO time enough and <i>Mission to Moscow</i> will make the list.<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_to_Moscow" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_to_Moscow</a></p>
<p>They&#8217;ll say something like, </p>
<p>&#8220;That Ambassador Davies was clear sighted enough to understand the threat implied by wreckers and counter-revolutionary saboteurs shows that Walter Huston would have been with us in this our War on Terror!  Also, Davies&#8217; refusal to buy into the apologies for Finland remind us of the importance of holding seemingly non-involved regimes like Iraq equally responsible for their involvement with Al Qaeda.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/02/11/politicizing-art/comment-page-1/#comment-30222</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:31:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8391#comment-30222</guid>
		<description>Agreed.  I enjoy Casablanca very much, but it is pretty heavy-handed in its politics and, as you say, they are not remotely conservative as anyone at the time would have understood that word or as many postwar conservatives understood it, either.  It&#039;s not just that Rick helps Laszlo, the noble communist, get out of town, but the writers even stuck in that awful line, &quot;Isolationism is no longer a viable policy.&quot;  This buys into two bogus claims--that the U.S. was &quot;isolationist&quot; in the interwar period, and that entry into the war was essential.

The change in the postwar American right&#039;s attitude towards the Spanish Civil War would be worth an essay all in itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed.  I enjoy Casablanca very much, but it is pretty heavy-handed in its politics and, as you say, they are not remotely conservative as anyone at the time would have understood that word or as many postwar conservatives understood it, either.  It&#8217;s not just that Rick helps Laszlo, the noble communist, get out of town, but the writers even stuck in that awful line, &#8220;Isolationism is no longer a viable policy.&#8221;  This buys into two bogus claims&#8211;that the U.S. was &#8220;isolationist&#8221; in the interwar period, and that entry into the war was essential.</p>
<p>The change in the postwar American right&#8217;s attitude towards the Spanish Civil War would be worth an essay all in itself.</p>
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		<title>By: Seamus</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/02/11/politicizing-art/comment-page-1/#comment-30220</link>
		<dc:creator>Seamus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:56:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8391#comment-30220</guid>
		<description>I wish NR would stop using the word &quot;conservative&quot; to describe its ideology.  They don&#039;t have any idea what the word means.  Back when NR came up with their list of 100 top &quot;conservative&quot; movies of all time, they listed &quot;Casablanca,&quot; which is truly a great movie, but the fact that they listed it as &quot;conservative&quot; proves that they are playing Humpty Dumpty with words.  If there was a political message in that film, it was one blasting conservatives like Robert A. Taft for wanting to stay out of the war.  (The reference to Franco&#039;s Nationalists as &quot;the fascists in Spain&quot; is a dead giveaway.  Back when I was growing up, conservatives simply didn&#039;t call the Nationalists &quot;fascists.&quot;  That was the Left&#039;s game.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish NR would stop using the word &#8220;conservative&#8221; to describe its ideology.  They don&#8217;t have any idea what the word means.  Back when NR came up with their list of 100 top &#8220;conservative&#8221; movies of all time, they listed &#8220;Casablanca,&#8221; which is truly a great movie, but the fact that they listed it as &#8220;conservative&#8221; proves that they are playing Humpty Dumpty with words.  If there was a political message in that film, it was one blasting conservatives like Robert A. Taft for wanting to stay out of the war.  (The reference to Franco&#8217;s Nationalists as &#8220;the fascists in Spain&#8221; is a dead giveaway.  Back when I was growing up, conservatives simply didn&#8217;t call the Nationalists &#8220;fascists.&#8221;  That was the Left&#8217;s game.)</p>
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		<title>By: Devizier</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/02/11/politicizing-art/comment-page-1/#comment-30218</link>
		<dc:creator>Devizier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8391#comment-30218</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m trying to imagine a similarly hamfisted attempt to contrive a &quot;best 25 liberal films&quot; using the same criteria. I&#039;m coming up with such gems as &quot;Crash&quot; and &quot;Bulworth&quot;. Anyone want to chip in?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m trying to imagine a similarly hamfisted attempt to contrive a &#8220;best 25 liberal films&#8221; using the same criteria. I&#8217;m coming up with such gems as &#8220;Crash&#8221; and &#8220;Bulworth&#8221;. Anyone want to chip in?</p>
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		<title>By: BarryD</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/02/11/politicizing-art/comment-page-1/#comment-30217</link>
		<dc:creator>BarryD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8391#comment-30217</guid>
		<description>Rowan:
&quot;For a few years now, Iâ€™ve been making the argument that the modern Republican party (often synonymous with â€œconservative,â€ and almost certainly so in the case of this list) is a combination of violent militarism, fundamentalism, and small-government rhetoric. This was a marriage with several inconsistencies, and couldnâ€™t really last. In the last couple of years, itâ€™s started falling apart. With the choice of McCain as candidate, it became clear that all the Republican party stood for anymore was war and militarism.&quot;

Actually, it still seems to be holding - remember, the small-government rehetoric only applies to the government doing certain things for certain non-elites.  When the government helps out the elites, the base doesn&#039;t object too strongly (compare Wall St hundreds of billions with a few dozen billions for the auto industry); when the government helps out the core non-elites, they love it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rowan:<br />
&#8220;For a few years now, Iâ€™ve been making the argument that the modern Republican party (often synonymous with â€œconservative,â€ and almost certainly so in the case of this list) is a combination of violent militarism, fundamentalism, and small-government rhetoric. This was a marriage with several inconsistencies, and couldnâ€™t really last. In the last couple of years, itâ€™s started falling apart. With the choice of McCain as candidate, it became clear that all the Republican party stood for anymore was war and militarism.&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually, it still seems to be holding &#8211; remember, the small-government rehetoric only applies to the government doing certain things for certain non-elites.  When the government helps out the elites, the base doesn&#8217;t object too strongly (compare Wall St hundreds of billions with a few dozen billions for the auto industry); when the government helps out the core non-elites, they love it.</p>
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		<title>By: ottovbvs</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/02/11/politicizing-art/comment-page-1/#comment-30212</link>
		<dc:creator>ottovbvs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 15:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8391#comment-30212</guid>
		<description>It was a bizarre list for anyone with any wide knowledge of the art and influence of movies. To start with a third of them would be unrecognizable to most people, then there were movies which is anything had liberal themes, of course there was the unconscious irony of Brazil and Grand Torino, but worst of all there are many more genuinely conservative that we&#039;re left off the list. Where was Dirty Harry or She Wore A Yellow Ribbon for example. The obsession with militarism is really a reflexion of who activist conservatives are today. These folks are in the main fundamentalist, simplistic nationalists that can be found in any society and were alas all too familiar in Europe in the thirties. The attraction of Gibson is interesting since the bad guys in his belief system the Jews (not the usual conservative thing) or the English (depends on the day for conservatives). In fact the English seem to have taken the place of the Nazis in Gibson&#039;s canon: either burning down churches full of women and children (the patriot..a real bummer of a movie if ever there was one); sending innocent Australian boys to their deaths (Gallipoli....wasn&#039;t the great conservative hero Churchill principally responsible for that?); or raining arrows down on their hapless Irish allies (Braveheart.....Edward I Breaker of the Scots...&quot;but we have more Irish&quot;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was a bizarre list for anyone with any wide knowledge of the art and influence of movies. To start with a third of them would be unrecognizable to most people, then there were movies which is anything had liberal themes, of course there was the unconscious irony of Brazil and Grand Torino, but worst of all there are many more genuinely conservative that we&#8217;re left off the list. Where was Dirty Harry or She Wore A Yellow Ribbon for example. The obsession with militarism is really a reflexion of who activist conservatives are today. These folks are in the main fundamentalist, simplistic nationalists that can be found in any society and were alas all too familiar in Europe in the thirties. The attraction of Gibson is interesting since the bad guys in his belief system the Jews (not the usual conservative thing) or the English (depends on the day for conservatives). In fact the English seem to have taken the place of the Nazis in Gibson&#8217;s canon: either burning down churches full of women and children (the patriot..a real bummer of a movie if ever there was one); sending innocent Australian boys to their deaths (Gallipoli&#8230;.wasn&#8217;t the great conservative hero Churchill principally responsible for that?); or raining arrows down on their hapless Irish allies (Braveheart&#8230;..Edward I Breaker of the Scots&#8230;&#8221;but we have more Irish&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: jfxgillis</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/02/11/politicizing-art/comment-page-1/#comment-30211</link>
		<dc:creator>jfxgillis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:40:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8391#comment-30211</guid>
		<description>Daniel:

I hammered those NRO philistines for their last such list, here:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://jfxgillis.newsvine.com/_news/2007/12/12/1146900-they-blew-it-the-secret-of-easy-rider&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;They Blew it: The Secret of&lt;em&gt; Easy Rider&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel:</p>
<p>I hammered those NRO philistines for their last such list, here:</p>
<p><a href="http://jfxgillis.newsvine.com/_news/2007/12/12/1146900-they-blew-it-the-secret-of-easy-rider" rel="nofollow">They Blew it: The Secret of<em> Easy Rider</em></a></p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/02/11/politicizing-art/comment-page-1/#comment-30204</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 03:05:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8391#comment-30204</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Apparently what merits its place on the list is this: â€œSignificantly, it treats soldiers not as wretched losers or pathological killers, but as regular citizens.â€ That seems to miss the point.&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s yet another example of pro-war Republicans conflating militarism and respect for the military:  they don&#039;t acknowledge that it&#039;s possible to hold American servicemen in high regard while strongly disagreeing with US foreign policy.  If the stereotypical liberal condescends to soldiers by assuming that they joined up because they had no other options, the stereotypical pro-war &quot;conservative&quot; tends to forget (or, worse, to romanticize) the moral, emotional and psychological strains that even well-adjusted and honorable men undergo during and after combat.

The inevitable problem with something like The Lord of the Rings movies (and even a lot of non-fantasy war movies) is that they allow the audience to experience as &quot;an adventure&quot; what the characters would be experiencing as a horror.  People who spend months or years of their lives butchering other sentient creatures, watching their friends die in front of them, etc., aren&#039;t going to live happily ever after, even if they fought honorably and won a just war.  Even adventure movies that nod toward that reality (like Return of the King) inevitably don&#039;t give that side of things as much weight as the excitement and exhilaration of the battle sequences.

As for stuff like We Were Soldiers, my problem with it is similar to my problem with the opening sequence of Saving Private Ryan.  In World War II and Vietnam the United States enjoyed massive advantages in air power, artillery, etc.  And yet these film dramatize rare instances in which the Americans ended up as the out-gunned underdogs.  Fair enough--these are real battles in which American soldiers fought honorably and bravely in very difficult circumstances.  But the relative scarcity of American films that accurately portray the US&#039;s overwhelming military superiority throughout most of the 20th century feeds the myth, exploited by pro-war types like the people at NRO, that the United States is some sort of perpetual underdog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Apparently what merits its place on the list is this: â€œSignificantly, it treats soldiers not as wretched losers or pathological killers, but as regular citizens.â€ That seems to miss the point.</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s yet another example of pro-war Republicans conflating militarism and respect for the military:  they don&#8217;t acknowledge that it&#8217;s possible to hold American servicemen in high regard while strongly disagreeing with US foreign policy.  If the stereotypical liberal condescends to soldiers by assuming that they joined up because they had no other options, the stereotypical pro-war &#8220;conservative&#8221; tends to forget (or, worse, to romanticize) the moral, emotional and psychological strains that even well-adjusted and honorable men undergo during and after combat.</p>
<p>The inevitable problem with something like The Lord of the Rings movies (and even a lot of non-fantasy war movies) is that they allow the audience to experience as &#8220;an adventure&#8221; what the characters would be experiencing as a horror.  People who spend months or years of their lives butchering other sentient creatures, watching their friends die in front of them, etc., aren&#8217;t going to live happily ever after, even if they fought honorably and won a just war.  Even adventure movies that nod toward that reality (like Return of the King) inevitably don&#8217;t give that side of things as much weight as the excitement and exhilaration of the battle sequences.</p>
<p>As for stuff like We Were Soldiers, my problem with it is similar to my problem with the opening sequence of Saving Private Ryan.  In World War II and Vietnam the United States enjoyed massive advantages in air power, artillery, etc.  And yet these film dramatize rare instances in which the Americans ended up as the out-gunned underdogs.  Fair enough&#8211;these are real battles in which American soldiers fought honorably and bravely in very difficult circumstances.  But the relative scarcity of American films that accurately portray the US&#8217;s overwhelming military superiority throughout most of the 20th century feeds the myth, exploited by pro-war types like the people at NRO, that the United States is some sort of perpetual underdog.</p>
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		<title>By: Petellius</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/02/11/politicizing-art/comment-page-1/#comment-30202</link>
		<dc:creator>Petellius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 02:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8391#comment-30202</guid>
		<description>Right.  I just meant that it is a little ironic (since I presume that he is not a rightie of any stripe) that it was specifically Peter Jackson&#039;s changes to the plot that made the movies more open to the NRO/hawk crowd&#039;s pro-war reading than the books are.  (Though, as you say, the movies are also more complex than a reductive reading of them as &quot;conservative films&quot; would imply.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right.  I just meant that it is a little ironic (since I presume that he is not a rightie of any stripe) that it was specifically Peter Jackson&#8217;s changes to the plot that made the movies more open to the NRO/hawk crowd&#8217;s pro-war reading than the books are.  (Though, as you say, the movies are also more complex than a reductive reading of them as &#8220;conservative films&#8221; would imply.)</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2009/02/11/politicizing-art/comment-page-1/#comment-30201</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 01:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8391#comment-30201</guid>
		<description>I would agree with you that there are many themes in LOTR that are in line with traditional conservative ideas, but all of the things that you cite make the story a poor fit with what the NRO list-makers want to see in it.  Conservatives can find many familiar ideas in several of these movies, but that need not define them as &quot;conservative movies.&quot;  I could argue that Apocalypto is a story of local patriotism and the moral decadence of empire, and you and I might recognize this as a traditional conservative message, but others are liable to view the story as an exercise in voyeuristic sadism because their dislike off the director or their inability to identify with native villagers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would agree with you that there are many themes in LOTR that are in line with traditional conservative ideas, but all of the things that you cite make the story a poor fit with what the NRO list-makers want to see in it.  Conservatives can find many familiar ideas in several of these movies, but that need not define them as &#8220;conservative movies.&#8221;  I could argue that Apocalypto is a story of local patriotism and the moral decadence of empire, and you and I might recognize this as a traditional conservative message, but others are liable to view the story as an exercise in voyeuristic sadism because their dislike off the director or their inability to identify with native villagers.</p>
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