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	<title>Comments on: Name Changes</title>
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	<description>n. the principle of good order&#60;br /&#62;&#60;br /&#62; "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
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		<title>By: RP-in-TX</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/12/08/name-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-20944</link>
		<dc:creator>RP-in-TX</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7917#comment-20944</guid>
		<description>I wish I had seen this post a couple of days ago. Rawshark is full of crap. The locals there used Mumbai when speaking in Marathi and Bombay when speaking in English. Guess what? They still do. Changing the name from Bombay to Mumbai on officially on English signs and maps was a political move and a lot of the locals there are still pissed about it even now. I&#039;ve heard plenty of locals there who feel the change robbed them of a heritage and of some international prestige. It cracks me up when I&#039;m there to hear locals say Bombay and hear Westerners say Mumbai.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish I had seen this post a couple of days ago. Rawshark is full of crap. The locals there used Mumbai when speaking in Marathi and Bombay when speaking in English. Guess what? They still do. Changing the name from Bombay to Mumbai on officially on English signs and maps was a political move and a lot of the locals there are still pissed about it even now. I&#8217;ve heard plenty of locals there who feel the change robbed them of a heritage and of some international prestige. It cracks me up when I&#8217;m there to hear locals say Bombay and hear Westerners say Mumbai.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/12/08/name-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-20766</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7917#comment-20766</guid>
		<description>Leaving aside the larger issues at stake, I think Sailer&#039;s point here is a silly one.  As M.Z. Forrest pointed out, anyone who watched or read any of the news coverage was told quickly and repeatedly that Mumbai and Bombay are the same city.

Daniel writes that he &quot;might be tempted to say that it would be difficult to increase the average personâ€™s ignorance of India, but thatâ€™s not the point.&quot;  But in this instance it &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; the point (at least partially).  Imagine a hypothetical news consumer who has heard of Bombay, but does not know that the city is now called Mumbai, and is too thick to figure out that it&#039;s one city despite several days of news coverage that constantly made note of this fact and/or used the two names interchangeably.

Should we (and everyone else in the world, from Burma/Myanmar to Bombay/Mumbai to Iran/Persia to Britain/the UK, to America/the US/the States, etc.) go out of our way to use names and terms that will not unduly confuse such a news consumer?  No, because that news consumer doesn&#039;t exist, because no one that ignorant and ineducable pays attention to the news.  Even if it made sense to cater to the lowest common denominator Sailer&#039;s still setting the bar way too low.

Sailer also seems to be making a larger point about the importance of continuity (there are books about Bombay in libraries, etc.).  But that point also relies on the existence of this hypothetical idiot who cares enough about history to look up Bombay in a library, but is too stupid and helpless to understand that the city now has a different name.  We&#039;re talking about a profoundly stupid and helpless person, since if you type &quot;Bombay&quot; into Google the first result is the Wikipedia entry titled &quot;Mumbai,&quot; and you can read about the name-change without even clicking over to the article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leaving aside the larger issues at stake, I think Sailer&#8217;s point here is a silly one.  As M.Z. Forrest pointed out, anyone who watched or read any of the news coverage was told quickly and repeatedly that Mumbai and Bombay are the same city.</p>
<p>Daniel writes that he &#8220;might be tempted to say that it would be difficult to increase the average personâ€™s ignorance of India, but thatâ€™s not the point.&#8221;  But in this instance it <i>is</i> the point (at least partially).  Imagine a hypothetical news consumer who has heard of Bombay, but does not know that the city is now called Mumbai, and is too thick to figure out that it&#8217;s one city despite several days of news coverage that constantly made note of this fact and/or used the two names interchangeably.</p>
<p>Should we (and everyone else in the world, from Burma/Myanmar to Bombay/Mumbai to Iran/Persia to Britain/the UK, to America/the US/the States, etc.) go out of our way to use names and terms that will not unduly confuse such a news consumer?  No, because that news consumer doesn&#8217;t exist, because no one that ignorant and ineducable pays attention to the news.  Even if it made sense to cater to the lowest common denominator Sailer&#8217;s still setting the bar way too low.</p>
<p>Sailer also seems to be making a larger point about the importance of continuity (there are books about Bombay in libraries, etc.).  But that point also relies on the existence of this hypothetical idiot who cares enough about history to look up Bombay in a library, but is too stupid and helpless to understand that the city now has a different name.  We&#8217;re talking about a profoundly stupid and helpless person, since if you type &#8220;Bombay&#8221; into Google the first result is the Wikipedia entry titled &#8220;Mumbai,&#8221; and you can read about the name-change without even clicking over to the article.</p>
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		<title>By: sidereal</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/12/08/name-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-20765</link>
		<dc:creator>sidereal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:39:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7917#comment-20765</guid>
		<description>Well, it&#039;s in the nature of grievance to elide the difference between force, pressure, and custom (I acknowledge that liberals are even more frequent eliders, because they&#039;ve historically been more likely to push up against pressure and custom).

And I came to the Bombay kerfuffle via the Hitchens/Sullivan/JGoldberg/Corner axis, so it&#039;s struck me as primarily a righty &lt;i&gt;cri de coeur&lt;/i&gt; with a lefty peanut gallery laughing along.

Of course I&#039;m wildly overstating my claims, but that&#039;s the nature of bitterness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it&#8217;s in the nature of grievance to elide the difference between force, pressure, and custom (I acknowledge that liberals are even more frequent eliders, because they&#8217;ve historically been more likely to push up against pressure and custom).</p>
<p>And I came to the Bombay kerfuffle via the Hitchens/Sullivan/JGoldberg/Corner axis, so it&#8217;s struck me as primarily a righty <i>cri de coeur</i> with a lefty peanut gallery laughing along.</p>
<p>Of course I&#8217;m wildly overstating my claims, but that&#8217;s the nature of bitterness.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/12/08/name-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-20763</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7917#comment-20763</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s what makes the least sense about it.  No one is *making* anyone do anything.  There is not, so far as I know, an organization dedicated to compelling use of post-colonial names by anyone.  No one is going to be charged a fine if he keeps calling it Bombay.  

Also, I don&#039;t know that this &quot;don&#039;t call it Mumbai&quot; meme has really caught on at a lot of conservative blogs.  As far as I can tell, most of the discussion has been on left blogs breaking down into somewhat pro- and anti-Hitchens camps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s what makes the least sense about it.  No one is *making* anyone do anything.  There is not, so far as I know, an organization dedicated to compelling use of post-colonial names by anyone.  No one is going to be charged a fine if he keeps calling it Bombay.  </p>
<p>Also, I don&#8217;t know that this &#8220;don&#8217;t call it Mumbai&#8221; meme has really caught on at a lot of conservative blogs.  As far as I can tell, most of the discussion has been on left blogs breaking down into somewhat pro- and anti-Hitchens camps.</p>
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		<title>By: sidereal</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/12/08/name-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-20762</link>
		<dc:creator>sidereal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:01:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7917#comment-20762</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
I donâ€™t quite understand why there is so much resistance.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The resistance is very familiar and is based, like much of modern American movement conservative animus, in disproportionate resentment.  As in: those utopian fascist liberals are trying to &lt;i&gt;make us&lt;/i&gt; use different terminology (and wear seatbelts and recycle) so let&#039;s pretend it&#039;s a grievous harbinger of evil and blog about it for a week.

Okay, maybe I&#039;m a little bitter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
I donâ€™t quite understand why there is so much resistance.
</p></blockquote>
<p>The resistance is very familiar and is based, like much of modern American movement conservative animus, in disproportionate resentment.  As in: those utopian fascist liberals are trying to <i>make us</i> use different terminology (and wear seatbelts and recycle) so let&#8217;s pretend it&#8217;s a grievous harbinger of evil and blog about it for a week.</p>
<p>Okay, maybe I&#8217;m a little bitter.</p>
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		<title>By: rawshark</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/12/08/name-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-20760</link>
		<dc:creator>rawshark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7917#comment-20760</guid>
		<description>&#039;Really? I think a lot of us Westerners feel the name change is stripping us of OUR heritage. We already have hundreds of years of Western and Indo-Western literature where the city of Bombay plays a prominent role. &#039;

So? Who gives a crap about our heritage? What about their heritage? Some white people came along and changed the name of their town. Doesn&#039;t that matter? 
Where was all the crying when Yugoslavia disappeared? Can I bitch about it and make them force all those people to live under rule they hated so I can continue to say the word?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Really? I think a lot of us Westerners feel the name change is stripping us of OUR heritage. We already have hundreds of years of Western and Indo-Western literature where the city of Bombay plays a prominent role. &#8216;</p>
<p>So? Who gives a crap about our heritage? What about their heritage? Some white people came along and changed the name of their town. Doesn&#8217;t that matter?<br />
Where was all the crying when Yugoslavia disappeared? Can I bitch about it and make them force all those people to live under rule they hated so I can continue to say the word?</p>
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		<title>By: M.Z. Forrest</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/12/08/name-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-20759</link>
		<dc:creator>M.Z. Forrest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:49:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7917#comment-20759</guid>
		<description>If one cared at all and watched for longer than 30 seconds, one couldn&#039;t have missed that Mumbai was formerly Bombay.  I come from the other side of the equation and believe that people should be called whatever they want to be within reason and native pronunciations should be preferred.  Espania over Spain.  Deutschland over Germany.  Like you, I don&#039;t find Mumbai to be all that different from Bombay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If one cared at all and watched for longer than 30 seconds, one couldn&#8217;t have missed that Mumbai was formerly Bombay.  I come from the other side of the equation and believe that people should be called whatever they want to be within reason and native pronunciations should be preferred.  Espania over Spain.  Deutschland over Germany.  Like you, I don&#8217;t find Mumbai to be all that different from Bombay.</p>
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		<title>By: Petellius</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/12/08/name-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-20758</link>
		<dc:creator>Petellius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7917#comment-20758</guid>
		<description>I have a feeling that the resistance to these things is not based wholly on residual Romantic/Colonialist feelings about a given city, though these certainly contribute in the case of Bombay.

I think that it is part of a broader reluctance to go along with the postcolonial crowd&#039;s de-Anglicization of our global toponyms.  I feel the same sort of irritation at &quot;Mumbai&quot; that I did a few years back when all the TV networks were going on about the Winter Olympics being held in &quot;Torino&quot;, as if there weren&#039;t a perfectly good English name for the city already.  Are we next going to have to start talking about Moskva and Muenchen?  (Or an even better analogy for the last, &quot;Minga&quot;, which is apparently the Austro-Bavarian dialect name for the city.)  The whole project is just ridiculous.

I think I&#039;m just going to start calling everyplace by its respective Latin name.  Makes things much simpler.

eis ten polin... *sigh*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a feeling that the resistance to these things is not based wholly on residual Romantic/Colonialist feelings about a given city, though these certainly contribute in the case of Bombay.</p>
<p>I think that it is part of a broader reluctance to go along with the postcolonial crowd&#8217;s de-Anglicization of our global toponyms.  I feel the same sort of irritation at &#8220;Mumbai&#8221; that I did a few years back when all the TV networks were going on about the Winter Olympics being held in &#8220;Torino&#8221;, as if there weren&#8217;t a perfectly good English name for the city already.  Are we next going to have to start talking about Moskva and Muenchen?  (Or an even better analogy for the last, &#8220;Minga&#8221;, which is apparently the Austro-Bavarian dialect name for the city.)  The whole project is just ridiculous.</p>
<p>I think I&#8217;m just going to start calling everyplace by its respective Latin name.  Makes things much simpler.</p>
<p>eis ten polin&#8230; *sigh*</p>
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		<title>By: The.Decider</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/12/08/name-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-20756</link>
		<dc:creator>The.Decider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7917#comment-20756</guid>
		<description>FWIW

There is another take on the name change &lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?id=b4Trw_i-xE0C&amp;pg=PA112&amp;dq=The+Future+of+Freedom+Bomnay+Mumbai#PPA113,M1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt;:</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW</p>
<p>There is another take on the name change <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=b4Trw_i-xE0C&amp;pg=PA112&amp;dq=The+Future+of+Freedom+Bomnay+Mumbai#PPA113,M1" rel="nofollow">Here</a>:</p>
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		<title>By: vanya</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/12/08/name-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-20755</link>
		<dc:creator>vanya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7917#comment-20755</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;Even so, the change to Mumbai is not that hard to adjust to, so I donâ€™t quite understand why there is so much resistance.&lt;/i&gt;

Really? I think a lot of us Westerners feel the name change is stripping us of OUR heritage.  We already have hundreds of years of Western and Indo-Western literature where the city of Bombay plays a prominent role. Bombay is a symbol of oriental exoticism.  It has drinks, clothing lines, retail chains, etc. named after it. To no longer have Bombay in the world is a loss.  Arguably many Mumbaikar feel insulted to play the role of such a symbol, I get that, but it also makes Bombay a special place in the world - up there with Rome, New York, Paris, and Rio.  Why would anyone throw that away?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Even so, the change to Mumbai is not that hard to adjust to, so I donâ€™t quite understand why there is so much resistance.</i></p>
<p>Really? I think a lot of us Westerners feel the name change is stripping us of OUR heritage.  We already have hundreds of years of Western and Indo-Western literature where the city of Bombay plays a prominent role. Bombay is a symbol of oriental exoticism.  It has drinks, clothing lines, retail chains, etc. named after it. To no longer have Bombay in the world is a loss.  Arguably many Mumbaikar feel insulted to play the role of such a symbol, I get that, but it also makes Bombay a special place in the world &#8211; up there with Rome, New York, Paris, and Rio.  Why would anyone throw that away?</p>
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		<title>By: Derek Copold</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/12/08/name-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-20754</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek Copold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:23:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7917#comment-20754</guid>
		<description>The resistance, which I myself feel, is because the word Bombay conjures up a lot of associations, most of them are silly, romantic Kiplingesque in nature, but they&#039;re there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The resistance, which I myself feel, is because the word Bombay conjures up a lot of associations, most of them are silly, romantic Kiplingesque in nature, but they&#8217;re there.</p>
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		<title>By: David Tomlin</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/12/08/name-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-20730</link>
		<dc:creator>David Tomlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 09:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7917#comment-20730</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s time someone mentioned the delightful ditty &#039;Istanbul&#039;, in case some youngsters haven&#039;t yet made its acquaintance.

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~yavuzcet/lyrics.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s time someone mentioned the delightful ditty &#8216;Istanbul&#8217;, in case some youngsters haven&#8217;t yet made its acquaintance.</p>
<p><a href="http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~yavuzcet/lyrics.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~yavuzcet/lyrics.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: tedschan</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/12/08/name-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-20711</link>
		<dc:creator>tedschan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 05:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7917#comment-20711</guid>
		<description>Interesting--has any progress been made between the Orthodox and the monophysites/miaphysites?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting&#8211;has any progress been made between the Orthodox and the monophysites/miaphysites?</p>
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		<title>By: E.D. Kain</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/12/08/name-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-20704</link>
		<dc:creator>E.D. Kain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 04:45:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7917#comment-20704</guid>
		<description>Not to drift too far from the point here, but perhaps we should check which name has been removed from the Oxford English Children&#039;s Dictionary first....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to drift too far from the point here, but perhaps we should check which name has been removed from the Oxford English Children&#8217;s Dictionary first&#8230;.</p>
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