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	<title>Comments on: Wouldn&#8217;t Be (And Isn&#8217;t) Prudent</title>
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	<description>n. the principle of good order&#60;br /&#62;&#60;br /&#62; "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/comment-page-1/#comment-12096</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 01:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/#comment-12096</guid>
		<description>I have tried to make that point, but it is certainly one that should be restated as often as possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have tried to make that point, but it is certainly one that should be restated as often as possible.</p>
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		<title>By: tapdancer</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/comment-page-1/#comment-12095</link>
		<dc:creator>tapdancer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 23:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/#comment-12095</guid>
		<description>What I don&#039;t hear discussed is Obama&#039;s &quot;reversal&quot; on FISA came after he became the frontrunner. If elected he stands to inherit the NSA wiretap files without the political risk that Bush runs if the details of the wiretap programs become widely know. He didn&#039;t create the program; he just inherited them. 

He can have his justice department mine the archives to find all sorts of crimes by real or imagined enemies. And he can claim not only was it not his doing that created the evidence but he even voted against intrusive rollbacks of the fourth amendment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I don&#8217;t hear discussed is Obama&#8217;s &#8220;reversal&#8221; on FISA came after he became the frontrunner. If elected he stands to inherit the NSA wiretap files without the political risk that Bush runs if the details of the wiretap programs become widely know. He didn&#8217;t create the program; he just inherited them. </p>
<p>He can have his justice department mine the archives to find all sorts of crimes by real or imagined enemies. And he can claim not only was it not his doing that created the evidence but he even voted against intrusive rollbacks of the fourth amendment.</p>
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		<title>By: Independence &#171; Upturned Earth &#124;&#124; John Schwenkler</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/comment-page-1/#comment-12008</link>
		<dc:creator>Independence &#171; Upturned Earth &#124;&#124; John Schwenkler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:31:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/#comment-12008</guid>
		<description>[...] going to arrive.     No Comments so far  Leave a comment   RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI    Leave a comment Line and paragraph breaks automatic, e-mail address never displayed, HTMLallowed: &lt;a href=&quot;&quot; title=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;abbr title=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;acronym title=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;b&gt; &lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;cite&gt; &lt;code&gt; &lt;del datetime=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;em&gt; &lt;i&gt; &lt;q cite=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;strike&gt; &lt;strong&gt; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] going to arrive.     No Comments so far  Leave a comment   RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI    Leave a comment Line and paragraph breaks automatic, e-mail address never displayed, HTMLallowed: &lt;a href=&quot;&quot; title=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;abbr title=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;acronym title=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;b&gt; &lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;cite&gt; &lt;code&gt; &lt;del datetime=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;em&gt; &lt;i&gt; &lt;q cite=&quot;&quot;&gt; &lt;strike&gt; &lt;strong&gt; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/comment-page-1/#comment-12000</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 00:26:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/#comment-12000</guid>
		<description>I think I phrased that poorly. What I meant was that the demagogues are saying that you have to choose between the 4th Amendment and antiterrorism. Defenders of the 4th Amendment are in the right.Â  To be absolutely clear: warrantless wiretapping is illegal and outrageous, and I applaud those who are opposing it.Â </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I phrased that poorly. What I meant was that the demagogues are saying that you have to choose between the 4th Amendment and antiterrorism. Defenders of the 4th Amendment are in the right.Â  To be absolutely clear: warrantless wiretapping is illegal and outrageous, and I applaud those who are opposing it.Â </p>
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		<title>By: johnqeniac</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/comment-page-1/#comment-11997</link>
		<dc:creator>johnqeniac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:23:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/#comment-11997</guid>
		<description>As a progressive, I am surprised (and that in itself is depressing to have to admit) to hear a &#039;conservative&#039; in this day actually defend the Constitution rather than the right of the &#039;unitary executive&#039; to do whatever he feels like.  But why do you say it is demagoguery to contend that the Fourth Amendment rights are at issue here?  The bush regime is claiming the right to uninhibited access to any citizen&#039;s documents, mails, and conversations.  Why is this not manifestly an issue of illegal search and seizure?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a progressive, I am surprised (and that in itself is depressing to have to admit) to hear a &#8216;conservative&#8217; in this day actually defend the Constitution rather than the right of the &#8216;unitary executive&#8217; to do whatever he feels like.  But why do you say it is demagoguery to contend that the Fourth Amendment rights are at issue here?  The bush regime is claiming the right to uninhibited access to any citizen&#8217;s documents, mails, and conversations.  Why is this not manifestly an issue of illegal search and seizure?</p>
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		<title>By: JBraunstein</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/comment-page-1/#comment-11990</link>
		<dc:creator>JBraunstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 20:23:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/#comment-11990</guid>
		<description>The old bait and switch.  Of course, we&#039;re again faced with the typical &quot;lesser of two evils&quot; scenario which isn&#039;t in itself suprising, but to Daniel&#039;s point about how a &quot;skilled rhetorician&quot; could easily reframe this debate (as I myself often do for a fantasy audience in my bathroom mirror), I wonder why Obama didn&#039;t have the guts (since he certainly has the skill) to do this.  If FISA&#039;s defenders are right, the TSP isn&#039;t about the adequacy of the govt.&#039;s current surveillence powers, but rather a basic framework of accountability for what amounts to Big Brother. 

 Obama knows this, but apparently he doesn&#039;t think he&#039;s able to use the accountability argument to his advantage while defusing the BS argument that civil protections hamstring the WOT.  The entire country&#039;s eyes are on him to offer &quot;change&quot;, and yet he&#039;s still deferring to the neoconservative frame of reference on liberty v. security.  

By the way, who is this ambiguous &quot;center&quot; that the punditry seems to have pinned down as representing a weird &quot;split the difference&quot; combination of one part watered-down neoconservatism, one part economic liberalism? (0 parts civil libertarian apparently).  Doesn&#039;t this just describe the huge swath of generally uninterested, marginally politically aware citizens who believe whatever they&#039;re told and who&#039;s first response to any percieved problem is &quot;There aughta be a law...&quot;

 I think any smart political observer would admit, under the present circumstances, Obama caving on this issue isn&#039;t politically necessary or even advantageous--but he did.  If he&#039;s worried that the current debate, long commandeered by neconservative assumptions, labels a pro-civil liberties, pro-govt. accountability position &quot;too left&quot;, why doesn&#039;t he take on the establishment in a way consistant with the &quot;brand&quot; he&#039;s constructed for himself?  It&#039;s worked so far, why fix it if it ain&#039;t broke?    

8 years of Bush has provided him a gaping opportunity to capture and steer political perception and instead he shrinks away from taking a principled stand on almost anything that could be seen as controversial--not by American voters, who are thirsty for a new narrative divorced from Bushian politics, but by the very calcified establishment he claims to oppose.  He seems to be absolutely surrendering to the &quot;old politics&quot; pressure for a post-primary pivot, on automatic pilot, without ever testing the waters to see if his &quot;change&quot; shtick actually works on a general electorate.  Que the rationalizations of pro-Obama liberals, newly minted &quot;pragmatists&quot; (as long as it&#039;s &quot;their&quot; guy abandoning core principles for supposed electoral gain).

All this is moot of course if Obama is just a wolf in sheep&#039;s clothing and accepts the whole &quot;pre/post 9/11&quot; interpretation of civil liberties as defined by the PNAC boys.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The old bait and switch.  Of course, we&#8217;re again faced with the typical &#8220;lesser of two evils&#8221; scenario which isn&#8217;t in itself suprising, but to Daniel&#8217;s point about how a &#8220;skilled rhetorician&#8221; could easily reframe this debate (as I myself often do for a fantasy audience in my bathroom mirror), I wonder why Obama didn&#8217;t have the guts (since he certainly has the skill) to do this.  If FISA&#8217;s defenders are right, the TSP isn&#8217;t about the adequacy of the govt.&#8217;s current surveillence powers, but rather a basic framework of accountability for what amounts to Big Brother. </p>
<p> Obama knows this, but apparently he doesn&#8217;t think he&#8217;s able to use the accountability argument to his advantage while defusing the BS argument that civil protections hamstring the WOT.  The entire country&#8217;s eyes are on him to offer &#8220;change&#8221;, and yet he&#8217;s still deferring to the neoconservative frame of reference on liberty v. security.  </p>
<p>By the way, who is this ambiguous &#8220;center&#8221; that the punditry seems to have pinned down as representing a weird &#8220;split the difference&#8221; combination of one part watered-down neoconservatism, one part economic liberalism? (0 parts civil libertarian apparently).  Doesn&#8217;t this just describe the huge swath of generally uninterested, marginally politically aware citizens who believe whatever they&#8217;re told and who&#8217;s first response to any percieved problem is &#8220;There aughta be a law&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p> I think any smart political observer would admit, under the present circumstances, Obama caving on this issue isn&#8217;t politically necessary or even advantageous&#8211;but he did.  If he&#8217;s worried that the current debate, long commandeered by neconservative assumptions, labels a pro-civil liberties, pro-govt. accountability position &#8220;too left&#8221;, why doesn&#8217;t he take on the establishment in a way consistant with the &#8220;brand&#8221; he&#8217;s constructed for himself?  It&#8217;s worked so far, why fix it if it ain&#8217;t broke?    </p>
<p>8 years of Bush has provided him a gaping opportunity to capture and steer political perception and instead he shrinks away from taking a principled stand on almost anything that could be seen as controversial&#8211;not by American voters, who are thirsty for a new narrative divorced from Bushian politics, but by the very calcified establishment he claims to oppose.  He seems to be absolutely surrendering to the &#8220;old politics&#8221; pressure for a post-primary pivot, on automatic pilot, without ever testing the waters to see if his &#8220;change&#8221; shtick actually works on a general electorate.  Que the rationalizations of pro-Obama liberals, newly minted &#8220;pragmatists&#8221; (as long as it&#8217;s &#8220;their&#8221; guy abandoning core principles for supposed electoral gain).</p>
<p>All this is moot of course if Obama is just a wolf in sheep&#8217;s clothing and accepts the whole &#8220;pre/post 9/11&#8243; interpretation of civil liberties as defined by the PNAC boys.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam01</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/comment-page-1/#comment-11985</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam01</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/#comment-11985</guid>
		<description>&quot;it seems to confirm that we will have the worst of the welfare and security states under a President Obama.&quot;

And each one reinforces the other, something I wish I could pound into the heads of &#039;mainstream conservatives&#039; who rail against big government and progressives who rail against foreign policy adventurism and the erosion of civil liberties at home.  You don&#039;t get to choose which parts of the devil you dance with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;it seems to confirm that we will have the worst of the welfare and security states under a President Obama.&#8221;</p>
<p>And each one reinforces the other, something I wish I could pound into the heads of &#8216;mainstream conservatives&#8217; who rail against big government and progressives who rail against foreign policy adventurism and the erosion of civil liberties at home.  You don&#8217;t get to choose which parts of the devil you dance with.</p>
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		<title>By: Eunomia &#187; (Not) Taking The Lead</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/comment-page-1/#comment-11984</link>
		<dc:creator>Eunomia &#187; (Not) Taking The Lead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/#comment-11984</guid>
		<description>[...] Wouldn&#039;t Be (And Isn&#039;t) Prudent&#160;&#160;1 jaloren [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Wouldn&#8217;t Be (And Isn&#8217;t) Prudent&nbsp;&nbsp;1 jaloren [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jaloren</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/comment-page-1/#comment-11983</link>
		<dc:creator>jaloren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:13:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/03/wouldnt-be-and-isnt-prudent/#comment-11983</guid>
		<description>The questions I ask myself is this: is McCain worse? And what are my choices?

It seems to me that on the one hand you have a candidate who wants to gut the Fourth Amendment with an activist base who strongly opposes the erosion of core constitutional liberties.  

On the other, you have a candidate who wants to gut the Fourth Amendment with an activist base who is cheer leading him along the way.

Does electoral support from people who favor civil liberties act as a  road block to a president who seeks to violate those liberties? I am guessing the answer is no. The reason for this is simple: no one cares about FISA except activists. 

That&#039;s what makes this particularly galling. Obama could have taken any position he cared to and probably not suffer any electoral punishment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The questions I ask myself is this: is McCain worse? And what are my choices?</p>
<p>It seems to me that on the one hand you have a candidate who wants to gut the Fourth Amendment with an activist base who strongly opposes the erosion of core constitutional liberties.  </p>
<p>On the other, you have a candidate who wants to gut the Fourth Amendment with an activist base who is cheer leading him along the way.</p>
<p>Does electoral support from people who favor civil liberties act as a  road block to a president who seeks to violate those liberties? I am guessing the answer is no. The reason for this is simple: no one cares about FISA except activists. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s what makes this particularly galling. Obama could have taken any position he cared to and probably not suffer any electoral punishment.</p>
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