Comments on: Fundamentally Wrong http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/07/01/fundamentally-wrong/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=fundamentally-wrong n. the principle of good order<br /><br /> "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman Fri, 10 Feb 2012 02:25:26 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Daniel Larison http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/07/01/fundamentally-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-11927 Daniel Larison Tue, 01 Jul 2008 21:02:12 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/01/fundamentally-wrong/#comment-11927 Well, you've hit on a major problem of Americanism and "credal" nationhood. I have fewer objections to this phrase, since I believe all things remain fundamentally good because they were created good, but have been corrupted in the Fall. Even so, the phrase does uncritically invest earthly things with more virtue than they may possess. Well, you’ve hit on a major problem of Americanism and “credal” nationhood. I have fewer objections to this phrase, since I believe all things remain fundamentally good because they were created good, but have been corrupted in the Fall. Even so, the phrase does uncritically invest earthly things with more virtue than they may possess.

]]> By: dlcarltn http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/07/01/fundamentally-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-11924 dlcarltn Tue, 01 Jul 2008 20:36:14 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/01/fundamentally-wrong/#comment-11924 Gee--If one has to believe in the fundamental goodness of America to be certified as a patriot, where does that leave us old-fashioned Calvinists who don't believe that *anything* human is fundamentally good? One fondly hopes and fervently prays [to allude to one of your favorite bogeymen] that the nation will live up to its high calling [although as people like Sacvan Berkovitch have pointed out, we rewrite the covenants even as we invoke them], but fundamentally the allegiance is one of obligation to a community, whether inherited or chosen. It should never set up the nation as an idol. Gee–If one has to believe in the fundamental goodness of America to be certified as a patriot, where does that leave us old-fashioned Calvinists who don’t believe that *anything* human is fundamentally good? One fondly hopes and fervently prays [to allude to one of your favorite bogeymen] that the nation will live up to its high calling [although as people like Sacvan Berkovitch have pointed out, we rewrite the covenants even as we invoke them], but fundamentally the allegiance is one of obligation to a community, whether inherited or chosen. It should never set up the nation as an idol.

]]> By: conradg http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/07/01/fundamentally-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-11923 conradg Tue, 01 Jul 2008 20:29:39 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/01/fundamentally-wrong/#comment-11923 Well, thanks for defending Obama's membership cred, even if it's not really a compliment by your standards, but I'll accept whatever I can get. I'm sure good arguments can be made on policy grounds against Obama, but the meme that is being used to organize all criticism is that he's an "outsider", not to be trusted, not a member of the club, and therefore it's simply useless to argue otherwise. I'm not even sure this works electorally in this cycle, since many people seem not to be trusting the club members these days. So maybe Obama is better off being perceived as something of an outsider. Well, thanks for defending Obama’s membership cred, even if it’s not really a compliment by your standards, but I’ll accept whatever I can get. I’m sure good arguments can be made on policy grounds against Obama, but the meme that is being used to organize all criticism is that he’s an “outsider”, not to be trusted, not a member of the club, and therefore it’s simply useless to argue otherwise. I’m not even sure this works electorally in this cycle, since many people seem not to be trusting the club members these days. So maybe Obama is better off being perceived as something of an outsider.

]]> By: Daniel Larison http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/07/01/fundamentally-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-11921 Daniel Larison Tue, 01 Jul 2008 20:17:11 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/01/fundamentally-wrong/#comment-11921 Yes, I'm familiar with the futility of it from past arguments, but it serves as a useful example of how the mainstream conservative criticism of Obama is typically at best founded on one or two anecdotes to the exclusion of everything else the man has ever said or done. It seems to me that a powerful case can be made against him based on what he has actually said and done without having to concoct theories about him. In case you missed it, I was defending Obama's "membership" in "the club." Yes, I’m familiar with the futility of it from past arguments, but it serves as a useful example of how the mainstream conservative criticism of Obama is typically at best founded on one or two anecdotes to the exclusion of everything else the man has ever said or done. It seems to me that a powerful case can be made against him based on what he has actually said and done without having to concoct theories about him.

In case you missed it, I was defending Obama’s “membership” in “the club.”

]]> By: conradg http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/07/01/fundamentally-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-11919 conradg Tue, 01 Jul 2008 20:07:20 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/01/fundamentally-wrong/#comment-11919 I'm sure you're aware of this, but there's no use in arguing against people like Goldberg. They are certain that only Republicans and conservatives and Joe Lieberman can possibly believe in American goodness. A liberal black man cannot possibly be trusted to believe in these things, it's obviously a ruse. It clearly doesn't matter what Obama says, he's just not part of the club. As a ceritified delusional personality cultist and third-degree Obama flack, I can personally attest to this. We are just pulling the wool over everyone's eyes, including our own. I’m sure you’re aware of this, but there’s no use in arguing against people like Goldberg. They are certain that only Republicans and conservatives and Joe Lieberman can possibly believe in American goodness. A liberal black man cannot possibly be trusted to believe in these things, it’s obviously a ruse. It clearly doesn’t matter what Obama says, he’s just not part of the club. As a ceritified delusional personality cultist and third-degree Obama flack, I can personally attest to this. We are just pulling the wool over everyone’s eyes, including our own.

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