Comments on: The End Of Bush’s History http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/05/31/the-end-of-bushs-history/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-end-of-bushs-history n. the principle of good order<br /><br /> "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman Fri, 10 Feb 2012 02:25:26 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Benny One Six http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/05/31/the-end-of-bushs-history/comment-page-1/#comment-11291 Benny One Six Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:34:50 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/05/31/the-end-of-bushs-history/#comment-11291 <i>It is the gradualist approach rather than the Leninist revolutionary one, to borrow a comparison that Fukuyama himself once used.</i> Well, you know removing Sadaam was a good thing in and of itself... And, the actions of Lenin/Stalin were logically consistent... The things they did were bad because they were wrong... It is the gradualist approach rather than the Leninist revolutionary one, to borrow a comparison that Fukuyama himself once used.

Well, you know removing Sadaam was a good thing in and of itself…

And, the actions of Lenin/Stalin were logically consistent… The things they did were bad because they were wrong…

]]> By: Benny One Six http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/05/31/the-end-of-bushs-history/comment-page-1/#comment-11290 Benny One Six Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:30:29 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/05/31/the-end-of-bushs-history/#comment-11290 <i>As an aside, I would just add that it has always been a glaring flaw in imagining that modernisation would result in anything that could credibly be called “the end of history,” since there will continue to be nations and a number of independent states (and possibly more states emerging all the time on account of the enduring power of nationalism), and their democratisation and economic development will increase the occasions for conflict and intensify national rivalries.</i> Not at all... and that's not an aside, it cuts right to the quick of the matter... http://www.regjeringen.no/nb/dep/ud/kampanjer/refleks/innspill/engasjement/prio.html?id=492941 As an aside, I would just add that it has always been a glaring flaw in imagining that modernisation would result in anything that could credibly be called “the end of history,” since there will continue to be nations and a number of independent states (and possibly more states emerging all the time on account of the enduring power of nationalism), and their democratisation and economic development will increase the occasions for conflict and intensify national rivalries.

Not at all… and that’s not an aside, it cuts right to the quick of the matter…

http://www.regjeringen.no/nb/dep/ud/kampanjer/refleks/innspill/engasjement/prio.html?id=492941

]]> By: Douglas Asimov http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/05/31/the-end-of-bushs-history/comment-page-1/#comment-11264 Douglas Asimov Sun, 01 Jun 2008 21:39:06 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/05/31/the-end-of-bushs-history/#comment-11264 Absolutely wonderful discussion of Fukuyama, but I have a few points about you ending with the problems of modernism. I think you are glossing Fukuyama in your argument that he is essentially glossing history. Fukuyama does not treat democracy as a panacea for all violence. In The End of History and the Last Man he argues that liberal democracies are what is valuable, not just rabbles given the symbols of legitamacy. Liberal democracies come about, by this argument, due to the forces of knowledge accumulation and the growth of markets. These things give the power elites of countries very little incentive to fight other liberal democracies. I would also add that a liberal democracy/ democratic republic has the benefit of allowing the majority some "cool down" time between its desire to liquidate minorities. So while the U.S. went to war in a mass hysteria, at least opposition was not convicted of "treason" as the Fox News crowd would have liked it. In my opinion, as long as humans are fallible and capable of learning <i>anything</i>, liberal democracies will have the edge over other governing systems. This edge will express itself in all sorts of situations in dynamic ways. Even if the edge is sometimes quite small, it can add up over time to a large difference. Just ask any casino about that. Absolutely wonderful discussion of Fukuyama, but I have a few points about you ending with the problems of modernism.

I think you are glossing Fukuyama in your argument that he is essentially glossing history. Fukuyama does not treat democracy as a panacea for all violence. In The End of History and the Last Man he argues that liberal democracies are what is valuable, not just rabbles given the symbols of legitamacy.

Liberal democracies come about, by this argument, due to the forces of knowledge accumulation and the growth of markets. These things give the power elites of countries very little incentive to fight other liberal democracies.

I would also add that a liberal democracy/ democratic republic has the benefit of allowing the majority some “cool down” time between its desire to liquidate minorities. So while the U.S. went to war in a mass hysteria, at least opposition was not convicted of “treason” as the Fox News crowd would have liked it.

In my opinion, as long as humans are fallible and capable of learning anything, liberal democracies will have the edge over other governing systems. This edge will express itself in all sorts of situations in dynamic ways. Even if the edge is sometimes quite small, it can add up over time to a large difference. Just ask any casino about that.

]]> By: Steve Roth http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/05/31/the-end-of-bushs-history/comment-page-1/#comment-11257 Steve Roth Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:10:10 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/05/31/the-end-of-bushs-history/#comment-11257 If you do accept Fukayama's theory (I do, though I admit to an element of hope encouraging that "belief"), I think it's also worth considering his more recent comment on it: "The End of History was never linked to a specifically American model of social or political organisation. Following Alexandre Kojève, the Russian-French philosopher who inspired my original argument, I believe that the European Union more accurately reflects what the world will look like at the end of history than the contemporary United States. The EU's attempt to transcend sovereignty and traditional power politics by establishing a transnational rule of law is much more in line with a "post-historical" world than the Americans' continuing belief in God, national sovereignty, and their military." The Guardian, 3 Apr 2007 Article here: http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/francis_fukuyama/2007/04/the_history_at_the_end_of_hist.html The long-term economic success of Europe vis-a-vis the US at least does nothing to disprove that expectation. http://trueconservative.typepad.com/trueconservative/2008/05/europe-vs-us-wh.html If you do accept Fukayama’s theory (I do, though I admit to an element of hope encouraging that “belief”), I think it’s also worth considering his more recent comment on it:

“The End of History was never linked to a specifically American model of social or political organisation. Following Alexandre Kojève, the Russian-French philosopher who inspired my original argument, I believe that the European Union more accurately reflects what the world will look like at the end of history than the contemporary United States. The EU’s attempt to transcend sovereignty and traditional power politics by establishing a transnational rule of law is much more in line with a “post-historical” world than the Americans’ continuing belief in God, national sovereignty, and their military.” The Guardian, 3 Apr 2007

Article here:

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/francis_fukuyama/2007/04/the_history_at_the_end_of_hist.html

The long-term economic success of Europe vis-a-vis the US at least does nothing to disprove that expectation.

http://trueconservative.typepad.com/trueconservative/2008/05/europe-vs-us-wh.html

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