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	<title>Comments on: Chechens Are Not Afghans (And Other Revelations)</title>
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	<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations</link>
	<description>n. the principle of good order&#60;br /&#62;&#60;br /&#62; "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-9896</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 20:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/#comment-9896</guid>
		<description>I was engaged in a bit of hyperbole there to stress the point, and looking back on it I should have been more careful.  Certainly, I wouldn&#039;t counsel that the Russians leave Chechnya as they left Afghanistan, and would say, as you suggest, that it is their business.  The point I wanted to emphasise is that the lesson of the post-Afghanistan experience is that the mujahideen gave up fighting the Soviets (or were limited to fighting their proxies in the north), and the conflict ended once the Soviets were no longer in their territory.  Russia has more at stake in Chechnya, and so is much less willing to give up on it.  Russian national pride after the collapse of the USSR might not allow them to give up on something that has been part of Russia about as long as the Southwest has been part of the U.S., and maybe that&#039;s as it should be, but that does come at a price.   

If someone asked for my advice, I might recommend a degree of regional autonomy with strict limits.  Whatever arguments I have with official Turkish policies, Ankara has made some effort in recent years to accommodate legitimate Kurdish grievances and create some space for expressions of Kudish identity, provided that they do not cross over into agitation for independence, and that seems to be working in integrating Kurds more fully into Turkey.  Greater decentralism when possible is my guiding rule, but I would add that nation-states need to be able to retain sovereignty over their territory and resist more extreme centrifugal tendencies that are encouraged by globalisation and the pull of ethnic nationalisms.  Certainly, I think these states should endeavour to maintain full legal protections for their minorities, but how they go about that really is their concern.   

The difference between perpetuating a foreign war that your government started and suppressing an insurrection within your own borders is a big one, and I regret if I minimised that difference in the course of making my argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was engaged in a bit of hyperbole there to stress the point, and looking back on it I should have been more careful.  Certainly, I wouldn&#8217;t counsel that the Russians leave Chechnya as they left Afghanistan, and would say, as you suggest, that it is their business.  The point I wanted to emphasise is that the lesson of the post-Afghanistan experience is that the mujahideen gave up fighting the Soviets (or were limited to fighting their proxies in the north), and the conflict ended once the Soviets were no longer in their territory.  Russia has more at stake in Chechnya, and so is much less willing to give up on it.  Russian national pride after the collapse of the USSR might not allow them to give up on something that has been part of Russia about as long as the Southwest has been part of the U.S., and maybe that&#8217;s as it should be, but that does come at a price.   </p>
<p>If someone asked for my advice, I might recommend a degree of regional autonomy with strict limits.  Whatever arguments I have with official Turkish policies, Ankara has made some effort in recent years to accommodate legitimate Kurdish grievances and create some space for expressions of Kudish identity, provided that they do not cross over into agitation for independence, and that seems to be working in integrating Kurds more fully into Turkey.  Greater decentralism when possible is my guiding rule, but I would add that nation-states need to be able to retain sovereignty over their territory and resist more extreme centrifugal tendencies that are encouraged by globalisation and the pull of ethnic nationalisms.  Certainly, I think these states should endeavour to maintain full legal protections for their minorities, but how they go about that really is their concern.   </p>
<p>The difference between perpetuating a foreign war that your government started and suppressing an insurrection within your own borders is a big one, and I regret if I minimised that difference in the course of making my argument.</p>
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		<title>By: djplondon</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-9895</link>
		<dc:creator>djplondon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 19:42:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/#comment-9895</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the response, which lays out a more familiar Larison line. We&#039;re all rooting for you in the back and forth with Goldfarb, but points like:

&quot;If anything, Beslan, the hostage-taking at the Moscow theater and the apartment bombings are all evidence of the terrible cost of persisting in a policy of occupation.  Indeed, the Soviet experience after withdrawing from Afghanistan might have provided a model for Russian policy towards Chechnya.&quot;

...end up sound awfully like advocacy of Chechen independence.

What are nations like Russia, Serbia or indeed Turkey to do with their &quot;disaffected minority populations&quot;? (I believe you often regard Turkey from an Armenian perspective) I imagine the palaeo-con view is &quot;I don&#039;t know but that&#039;s their own damn business&quot;.

Sometimes the answer is independence, despite the encouragement to violence it may give others. From my British perspective I&#039;m certainly glad we let Ireland go when we did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the response, which lays out a more familiar Larison line. We&#8217;re all rooting for you in the back and forth with Goldfarb, but points like:</p>
<p>&#8220;If anything, Beslan, the hostage-taking at the Moscow theater and the apartment bombings are all evidence of the terrible cost of persisting in a policy of occupation.  Indeed, the Soviet experience after withdrawing from Afghanistan might have provided a model for Russian policy towards Chechnya.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;end up sound awfully like advocacy of Chechen independence.</p>
<p>What are nations like Russia, Serbia or indeed Turkey to do with their &#8220;disaffected minority populations&#8221;? (I believe you often regard Turkey from an Armenian perspective) I imagine the palaeo-con view is &#8220;I don&#8217;t know but that&#8217;s their own damn business&#8221;.</p>
<p>Sometimes the answer is independence, despite the encouragement to violence it may give others. From my British perspective I&#8217;m certainly glad we let Ireland go when we did.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-9889</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/#comment-9889</guid>
		<description>I think I may have given the wrong impression in trying to state things that forcefully.  My point was not too say that Russia should have given up Chechnya.  I have written before that I think it is the Russians&#039; territory and it is their business what they do in it, so I would not argue for Chechen independence.  What I wanted to stress is that the attacks were related to control of Chechnya and the policies they carried out there.  I didn&#039;t really want to suggest that the Russians ought to have let Chechnya become independent--all the same arguments against Kosovo independence apply to Chechnya with even more force--but that if you are occupying a territory of people who want to break away you are liable to have terrorism.  

Withdrawal from that territory would probably lead to an end to terrorist attacks from *that* group, but it could encourage other separatists to follow the same path.  When it is your own territory, issues of sovereignty are involved in a way that doesn&#039;t apply with foreign deployments.  One reason the Russians have been so adamant about Chechnya is that they don&#039;t want other regions to get ideas about independence, so certainly the question of whether to abandon a territory is much less clear-cut when you have a large, multi-ethnic state with disaffected minority populations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I may have given the wrong impression in trying to state things that forcefully.  My point was not too say that Russia should have given up Chechnya.  I have written before that I think it is the Russians&#8217; territory and it is their business what they do in it, so I would not argue for Chechen independence.  What I wanted to stress is that the attacks were related to control of Chechnya and the policies they carried out there.  I didn&#8217;t really want to suggest that the Russians ought to have let Chechnya become independent&#8211;all the same arguments against Kosovo independence apply to Chechnya with even more force&#8211;but that if you are occupying a territory of people who want to break away you are liable to have terrorism.  </p>
<p>Withdrawal from that territory would probably lead to an end to terrorist attacks from *that* group, but it could encourage other separatists to follow the same path.  When it is your own territory, issues of sovereignty are involved in a way that doesn&#8217;t apply with foreign deployments.  One reason the Russians have been so adamant about Chechnya is that they don&#8217;t want other regions to get ideas about independence, so certainly the question of whether to abandon a territory is much less clear-cut when you have a large, multi-ethnic state with disaffected minority populations.</p>
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		<title>By: djplondon</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-9886</link>
		<dc:creator>djplondon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:17:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/#comment-9886</guid>
		<description>Daniel, of course your argument is broadly correct. Goldfarb adds in his update: &quot;It doesn&#039;t strike me as particularly &quot;ignorant&quot; to wonder if the Russians might not have been better served by killing the guy in Afghanistan when they had the chance, rather than in Dagestan in 2005--but hey, terrorists don&#039;t follow you home, right?&quot;
This is indeed ignorant, suggesting that the USSR&#039;s objectives in Afghanistan were somehow related to tracking down and killing terrorists. It further implies that the task for the US in Iraq, in order that &quot;they don&#039;t follow us home&quot; is to kill a number of terrorists &quot;while we have the chance&quot;. What, from a list? And then we can pack up and go home?

However, you go on to state that &quot;these attacks ... are, in fact, a result of continuing to control Chechnya.  Had there been no Chechen war, and no brutal repression of Chechnya, none of those attacks would have happened in any case.&quot; This is, as you know, a different proposition from arguing that the Soviets were foolish to invade Afghanistan, as it involves a movement for independence on Russian soil that did not result from a recent invasion. America has no violent native independence movements, but Russia, Serbia and many other nations do, of course.

How should Russia have responded to the demands for independence from a small Muslim region which harboured significant criminal activity? Your principled opposition to Kosovan independence stands in contrast to the suggestion that Russia should not have continued &quot;to control Chechnya&quot;. Should they have granted independence? Or are you arguing that it was the brutality of the Chechen war that was Russia&#039;s mistake, and that the Chechens could have been handled better (and, by extension, the Kosovars) so that they would have accepted mere autonomy? Are comparisons between the two unwarranted?

You write: &quot;The lesson seems clear: refusal to yield control of territory will result in terrorist acts, while withdrawal has no particularly noticeable after-effects...&quot; Do you believe this applies when the territory in question is (arguably) your own?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel, of course your argument is broadly correct. Goldfarb adds in his update: &#8220;It doesn&#8217;t strike me as particularly &#8220;ignorant&#8221; to wonder if the Russians might not have been better served by killing the guy in Afghanistan when they had the chance, rather than in Dagestan in 2005&#8211;but hey, terrorists don&#8217;t follow you home, right?&#8221;<br />
This is indeed ignorant, suggesting that the USSR&#8217;s objectives in Afghanistan were somehow related to tracking down and killing terrorists. It further implies that the task for the US in Iraq, in order that &#8220;they don&#8217;t follow us home&#8221; is to kill a number of terrorists &#8220;while we have the chance&#8221;. What, from a list? And then we can pack up and go home?</p>
<p>However, you go on to state that &#8220;these attacks &#8230; are, in fact, a result of continuing to control Chechnya.  Had there been no Chechen war, and no brutal repression of Chechnya, none of those attacks would have happened in any case.&#8221; This is, as you know, a different proposition from arguing that the Soviets were foolish to invade Afghanistan, as it involves a movement for independence on Russian soil that did not result from a recent invasion. America has no violent native independence movements, but Russia, Serbia and many other nations do, of course.</p>
<p>How should Russia have responded to the demands for independence from a small Muslim region which harboured significant criminal activity? Your principled opposition to Kosovan independence stands in contrast to the suggestion that Russia should not have continued &#8220;to control Chechnya&#8221;. Should they have granted independence? Or are you arguing that it was the brutality of the Chechen war that was Russia&#8217;s mistake, and that the Chechens could have been handled better (and, by extension, the Kosovars) so that they would have accepted mere autonomy? Are comparisons between the two unwarranted?</p>
<p>You write: &#8220;The lesson seems clear: refusal to yield control of territory will result in terrorist acts, while withdrawal has no particularly noticeable after-effects&#8230;&#8221; Do you believe this applies when the territory in question is (arguably) your own?</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-9885</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 07:45:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/#comment-9885</guid>
		<description>What a coincidence, I was just &lt;a href=&quot;http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2008/04/02/rock-the-casbah/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;pointing out&lt;/a&gt; how idiotic Goldfarb is when it comes to the source of terrorism in Iraq!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a coincidence, I was just <a href="http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2008/04/02/rock-the-casbah/" rel="nofollow">pointing out</a> how idiotic Goldfarb is when it comes to the source of terrorism in Iraq!</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-9877</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 15:57:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/#comment-9877</guid>
		<description>I would welcome your thoughts on what I could improve with this argument.  If there are loose ends that I could tie up to make it better, please feel free to tell me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would welcome your thoughts on what I could improve with this argument.  If there are loose ends that I could tie up to make it better, please feel free to tell me.</p>
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		<title>By: smmclaug</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-9876</link>
		<dc:creator>smmclaug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 15:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/#comment-9876</guid>
		<description>There are a couple of very minor quibbles I might have with your response, Daniel, but on the whole I&#039;m ver grateful you&#039;ve dealt with this foolishness.  My own study of the evolution of terror tactics in Chechnya and in Iraq has led me basically to the same conclusion--foreing occupations and low-intensity warfare in Muslim countries tend to become favorite training grounds for jihadis.  As much as the Weekly Standard crowd loves to emphasize the fact that so many of the Iraqi insurgents are foreigners, they consistently refuse to acknowledge that the US campaign there has provided invaluable training and experience to thousands of Muslim terrorists and guerillas, which was at one time being provided by the Russians in Chechnya or elsewhere in the Transcaucasus-Balkans-Pick-Your-Hellhole.  Whether it is even possible to &quot;win&quot; Iraq, international terror networks will emerge immeasurably stronger from this fiasco, and there is nothing at this point that can be done to lessen the damage, beyond shortening our stay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a couple of very minor quibbles I might have with your response, Daniel, but on the whole I&#8217;m ver grateful you&#8217;ve dealt with this foolishness.  My own study of the evolution of terror tactics in Chechnya and in Iraq has led me basically to the same conclusion&#8211;foreing occupations and low-intensity warfare in Muslim countries tend to become favorite training grounds for jihadis.  As much as the Weekly Standard crowd loves to emphasize the fact that so many of the Iraqi insurgents are foreigners, they consistently refuse to acknowledge that the US campaign there has provided invaluable training and experience to thousands of Muslim terrorists and guerillas, which was at one time being provided by the Russians in Chechnya or elsewhere in the Transcaucasus-Balkans-Pick-Your-Hellhole.  Whether it is even possible to &#8220;win&#8221; Iraq, international terror networks will emerge immeasurably stronger from this fiasco, and there is nothing at this point that can be done to lessen the damage, beyond shortening our stay.</p>
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		<title>By: Grumpy Old Man</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-9869</link>
		<dc:creator>Grumpy Old Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 00:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/#comment-9869</guid>
		<description>Well, in that case. never mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, in that case. never mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Maxwell</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-9868</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Maxwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 00:48:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/#comment-9868</guid>
		<description>Grumpy Old Man:  &quot;McCain, on the other hand, finished dead last in a larger class at Annapolis.&quot;

Incorrect -  And in fairness to McCain, I will correct you - 

He graduated 894th out of 899 :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grumpy Old Man:  &#8220;McCain, on the other hand, finished dead last in a larger class at Annapolis.&#8221;</p>
<p>Incorrect &#8211;  And in fairness to McCain, I will correct you &#8211; </p>
<p>He graduated 894th out of 899 :)</p>
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		<title>By: Grumpy Old Man</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-9866</link>
		<dc:creator>Grumpy Old Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 23:47:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/#comment-9866</guid>
		<description>Churchill was eighth in a class of 150 at Sandhurst, which ain&#039;t bad for a young man who is said to have been rather ungainly. McCain, on the other hand, finished dead last in a larger class at Annapolis.

The ill-fated George Armstrong Custer graduated dead last in his class at West Point, so perhaps that comparison is more apt for McCain.

It&#039;s a feat of sorts to study the absolute least one can without being sent down, but is that a skill we require of the POTUS?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Churchill was eighth in a class of 150 at Sandhurst, which ain&#8217;t bad for a young man who is said to have been rather ungainly. McCain, on the other hand, finished dead last in a larger class at Annapolis.</p>
<p>The ill-fated George Armstrong Custer graduated dead last in his class at West Point, so perhaps that comparison is more apt for McCain.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a feat of sorts to study the absolute least one can without being sent down, but is that a skill we require of the POTUS?</p>
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		<title>By: Elvis Elvisberg</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-9865</link>
		<dc:creator>Elvis Elvisberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 23:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/#comment-9865</guid>
		<description>Thanks for taking the time to calmly refute the factual errors in that post, Daniel. 

Everything in it is so over-the-top, so militantly and deliberately ignorant, that I can&#039;t even focus on any given error.  It all makes me think about more cosmic issues, like the fallen nature of man.  

More specifically: if someone like Goldfarb, who presumably has a college education, has access to the Internet, and works at one of the most influential magazines in the world can squint hard enough to make all them bad furriners look the same...

... can you imagine what kinds of wild rumors about American intentions are widely believed among Iraqis?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for taking the time to calmly refute the factual errors in that post, Daniel. </p>
<p>Everything in it is so over-the-top, so militantly and deliberately ignorant, that I can&#8217;t even focus on any given error.  It all makes me think about more cosmic issues, like the fallen nature of man.  </p>
<p>More specifically: if someone like Goldfarb, who presumably has a college education, has access to the Internet, and works at one of the most influential magazines in the world can squint hard enough to make all them bad furriners look the same&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230; can you imagine what kinds of wild rumors about American intentions are widely believed among Iraqis?</p>
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		<title>By: Eunomia &#187; Boldly Going</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/comment-page-1/#comment-9864</link>
		<dc:creator>Eunomia &#187; Boldly Going</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 22:40:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/04/01/chechens-are-not-afghans-and-other-revelations/#comment-9864</guid>
		<description>[...] That bit of Goldfarbian idiocy below was prompted by reaction to this bit of Max Boot foolishness: Just as Islamist militants were emboldened by the Soviet Union&#8217;s retreat from Afghanistan in 1989, so they would be encouraged by our premature departure from Iraq. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] That bit of Goldfarbian idiocy below was prompted by reaction to this bit of Max Boot foolishness: Just as Islamist militants were emboldened by the Soviet Union&#8217;s retreat from Afghanistan in 1989, so they would be encouraged by our premature departure from Iraq. [...]</p>
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