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	<title>Comments on: The Culture Wars Continue</title>
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	<description>n. the principle of good order&#60;br /&#62;&#60;br /&#62; "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
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		<title>By: Eunomia &#187; Culture Wars Continuing (Continued)</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/03/11/the-culture-wars-continue/comment-page-1/#comment-9783</link>
		<dc:creator>Eunomia &#187; Culture Wars Continuing (Continued)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/03/11/the-culture-wars-continue/#comment-9783</guid>
		<description>[...] This is one thing, and probably the only thing, that Kurtz and I can agree on.Â  The campaign seems primed to be more divisive and contentious than usual because the two campaigns are so heavily dependent on the symbolism of each candidate&#8217;s biographies, and so they are bound up with all of the cultural arguments that each candidate&#8217;s personal associations bring to mind.Â Â The culture clash will be intense (to some extent, it already is), and its expressions will be particularly harsh because they will be targeting the candidates personally.Â  As I said last month: The problem with candidacies defined so completelyÂ by biography, as Obama and McCainâ€™s candidacies clearly are, is that everything inÂ a candidateâ€™sÂ biography then becomes more or less fair game, and the political incentives for usingÂ the candidateâ€™sÂ family and friends to attackÂ him become very great.Â  Far from having the most high-minded and respectful campaign in memory between two media darlings, we areÂ probably about to embark on one that will be remembered for its bitterness and the sheer volume of third-party personal attacks made, because it is precisely in the candidatesâ€™ integrity and biography that their electoral strength resides. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This is one thing, and probably the only thing, that Kurtz and I can agree on.Â  The campaign seems primed to be more divisive and contentious than usual because the two campaigns are so heavily dependent on the symbolism of each candidate&#8217;s biographies, and so they are bound up with all of the cultural arguments that each candidate&#8217;s personal associations bring to mind.Â Â The culture clash will be intense (to some extent, it already is), and its expressions will be particularly harsh because they will be targeting the candidates personally.Â  As I said last month: The problem with candidacies defined so completelyÂ by biography, as Obama and McCainâ€™s candidacies clearly are, is that everything inÂ a candidateâ€™sÂ biography then becomes more or less fair game, and the political incentives for usingÂ the candidateâ€™sÂ family and friends to attackÂ him become very great.Â  Far from having the most high-minded and respectful campaign in memory between two media darlings, we areÂ probably about to embark on one that will be remembered for its bitterness and the sheer volume of third-party personal attacks made, because it is precisely in the candidatesâ€™ integrity and biography that their electoral strength resides. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eunomia &#187; Culture Clash</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/03/11/the-culture-wars-continue/comment-page-1/#comment-9598</link>
		<dc:creator>Eunomia &#187; Culture Clash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 01:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/03/11/the-culture-wars-continue/#comment-9598</guid>
		<description>[...] All of this reminds me that E.J. Dionne&#8217;s thesis that the culture wars are over and religion and culture will be taking a backseat to secular issues this cycleÂ is looking worse and worse all the time, and it seems to be confirming my guess that this presidential race is going to be far more polarising and divisive than those we have had in the recent past.Â  Consider: who would have thought a year ago that black liberation theology would become a significant point of debate in the presidential race?Â  What we are seeing growing out of this controversy is a culture clash between the Christian left that is not only accustomed to the militant tone of liberation theology, but which regards radicalism in these matters to be not just admirable but also vitally important, and the Christian and secular right that find either the theology or the politics of the Christian far left deeply inimical to their worldviews.Â  Secular progressives seem to regard the entire controversy as a manufactured one or as evidence of double standards, but are not as deeply invested in the theological underpinnings of the dispute (and this dispute is assuredly about theological assumptions as much as it is about intemperate political rhetoric).Â  None of this is really surprising, but it is somewhat remarkable that once again specifically religious questions are dominating the presidential campaign.Â  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] All of this reminds me that E.J. Dionne&#8217;s thesis that the culture wars are over and religion and culture will be taking a backseat to secular issues this cycleÂ is looking worse and worse all the time, and it seems to be confirming my guess that this presidential race is going to be far more polarising and divisive than those we have had in the recent past.Â  Consider: who would have thought a year ago that black liberation theology would become a significant point of debate in the presidential race?Â  What we are seeing growing out of this controversy is a culture clash between the Christian left that is not only accustomed to the militant tone of liberation theology, but which regards radicalism in these matters to be not just admirable but also vitally important, and the Christian and secular right that find either the theology or the politics of the Christian far left deeply inimical to their worldviews.Â  Secular progressives seem to regard the entire controversy as a manufactured one or as evidence of double standards, but are not as deeply invested in the theological underpinnings of the dispute (and this dispute is assuredly about theological assumptions as much as it is about intemperate political rhetoric).Â  None of this is really surprising, but it is somewhat remarkable that once again specifically religious questions are dominating the presidential campaign.Â  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: conradg</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/03/11/the-culture-wars-continue/comment-page-1/#comment-9468</link>
		<dc:creator>conradg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/03/11/the-culture-wars-continue/#comment-9468</guid>
		<description>Daniel,

I think you are largely right on this issue â€“ the culture wars are not going away, but are intensifying, and things are heading for a greater crisis somewhere down the line.

I got the sense from Dione&#039;s article that he was basing his ideas to some degree on the works of Strauss and Howe in â€œThe Fourth Turningâ€, which I thought was a pretty good attempt to look at the generational cycles in American politics. If so, he&#039;s mangled their ideas pretty badly. In brief, the â€œfourth turningâ€ thesis is that there are four generational cycles of roughly 20 years in an 80 year â€œturningâ€, the each of which comes to a conclusion in a transformative crisis that completely changes the landscape, and begins a new cyclce of conflicts and resolutions. The last three ended with the American Revolution, the Civil War, and WWII. In their schemata, the conflicts of the 1960s represented the â€œdefiningâ€ of the news set of conflicts we face in this cycle, which then were played out in the â€œCulture Warsâ€ of the last 20 or more years. Their book was written in 1997, so they didn&#039;t know when exactly the period of â€œculture warsâ€ would end, and when the â€œmillennial periodâ€ would begin, but they guessed a transition of about 2006. My sense is that Dione is to some degree speaking this language, and assuming that we are transitioning out of the culture wars and into a period of â€œmillennial crisisâ€, in which he thinks the culture wars will take a back seat to more important issues.

I think that&#039;s a misunderstanding of the â€œfourth turningâ€ thesis, which does not suggest that the underlying conflicts of the culture wars will be swept aside by some greater issues, but precisely the opposite: that the conflicts of the culture wars will manifest themselves even more profoundly and intractably than before, at a level which virtually ensures an enormous transformative event of some kind that finally resolves those issues. And based on the history, that transformative event is usually a major war of some kind which so transforms our country, and the very definition of â€œwho we areâ€ as a people. 

In other words, the conflicts leading up to the American Revolution did not get pushed aside by the revolution, the Revolution was the ultimate manifestation of those conflicts. Similarly, the conflicts of early American democracy did not get pushed aside, they led to the Civil War. And similarly, the conflicts within the newly federalized nation and big business economy of the post-civil War era did not get pushed aside by the Great Depression and WWII, they came to a head there. So the idea that the social and economic conflicts of the post-WWII era are somehow just going to go away because we are  entering some kind of â€œmillennial crisisâ€ is sheer nonsense, or at least not supported by the theory, which points in exactly the opposite direction: that the millennial crisis we are entering into some time over the next 20 years is the result of our current conflicts reaching such a great pitch of disturbance that they cannot avoid all-out war of some kind. The only difference is that this conflict will so overshadow our recent â€œculture warsâ€ as to make them seem petty in comparison. 

So basically I think you are right that our culture wars are not going away, but are on the road to increasing so dramatically as to make a peaceful resolution impossible. On a host of issues I see this coming to a boiling point over the next 20 years. I can&#039;t say how it will work out, but I don&#039;t expect it to be pretty. 

Btw, here&#039;s a link to the Fourth Turning Website:

http://www.fourthturning.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel,</p>
<p>I think you are largely right on this issue â€“ the culture wars are not going away, but are intensifying, and things are heading for a greater crisis somewhere down the line.</p>
<p>I got the sense from Dione&#8217;s article that he was basing his ideas to some degree on the works of Strauss and Howe in â€œThe Fourth Turningâ€, which I thought was a pretty good attempt to look at the generational cycles in American politics. If so, he&#8217;s mangled their ideas pretty badly. In brief, the â€œfourth turningâ€ thesis is that there are four generational cycles of roughly 20 years in an 80 year â€œturningâ€, the each of which comes to a conclusion in a transformative crisis that completely changes the landscape, and begins a new cyclce of conflicts and resolutions. The last three ended with the American Revolution, the Civil War, and WWII. In their schemata, the conflicts of the 1960s represented the â€œdefiningâ€ of the news set of conflicts we face in this cycle, which then were played out in the â€œCulture Warsâ€ of the last 20 or more years. Their book was written in 1997, so they didn&#8217;t know when exactly the period of â€œculture warsâ€ would end, and when the â€œmillennial periodâ€ would begin, but they guessed a transition of about 2006. My sense is that Dione is to some degree speaking this language, and assuming that we are transitioning out of the culture wars and into a period of â€œmillennial crisisâ€, in which he thinks the culture wars will take a back seat to more important issues.</p>
<p>I think that&#8217;s a misunderstanding of the â€œfourth turningâ€ thesis, which does not suggest that the underlying conflicts of the culture wars will be swept aside by some greater issues, but precisely the opposite: that the conflicts of the culture wars will manifest themselves even more profoundly and intractably than before, at a level which virtually ensures an enormous transformative event of some kind that finally resolves those issues. And based on the history, that transformative event is usually a major war of some kind which so transforms our country, and the very definition of â€œwho we areâ€ as a people. </p>
<p>In other words, the conflicts leading up to the American Revolution did not get pushed aside by the revolution, the Revolution was the ultimate manifestation of those conflicts. Similarly, the conflicts of early American democracy did not get pushed aside, they led to the Civil War. And similarly, the conflicts within the newly federalized nation and big business economy of the post-civil War era did not get pushed aside by the Great Depression and WWII, they came to a head there. So the idea that the social and economic conflicts of the post-WWII era are somehow just going to go away because we are  entering some kind of â€œmillennial crisisâ€ is sheer nonsense, or at least not supported by the theory, which points in exactly the opposite direction: that the millennial crisis we are entering into some time over the next 20 years is the result of our current conflicts reaching such a great pitch of disturbance that they cannot avoid all-out war of some kind. The only difference is that this conflict will so overshadow our recent â€œculture warsâ€ as to make them seem petty in comparison. </p>
<p>So basically I think you are right that our culture wars are not going away, but are on the road to increasing so dramatically as to make a peaceful resolution impossible. On a host of issues I see this coming to a boiling point over the next 20 years. I can&#8217;t say how it will work out, but I don&#8217;t expect it to be pretty. </p>
<p>Btw, here&#8217;s a link to the Fourth Turning Website:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.fourthturning.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.fourthturning.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/03/11/the-culture-wars-continue/comment-page-1/#comment-9467</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 21:47:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/03/11/the-culture-wars-continue/#comment-9467</guid>
		<description>See &lt;a href=&quot;http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2006/05/back_to_normal.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Back to Normal&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See <a href="http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2006/05/back_to_normal.html" rel="nofollow">Back to Normal</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: adam</title>
		<link>http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2008/03/11/the-culture-wars-continue/comment-page-1/#comment-9465</link>
		<dc:creator>adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 19:26:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/03/11/the-culture-wars-continue/#comment-9465</guid>
		<description>&quot;An excess of cultural diversity in a republican or representative system ultimately means the crisis and breakdown of that system into either an authoritarian or monarchical regime of some sort or a crack-up of the polity into numerous, relatively more homogenous states.&quot;

I suppose that would put me in the Independent Republic of Ohio, at some point in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;An excess of cultural diversity in a republican or representative system ultimately means the crisis and breakdown of that system into either an authoritarian or monarchical regime of some sort or a crack-up of the polity into numerous, relatively more homogenous states.&#8221;</p>
<p>I suppose that would put me in the Independent Republic of Ohio, at some point in the future.</p>
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