Post-Post-Conciliar Catholicism

By Rod Dreher • February 11, 2013, 3:38 PM

Above, the Daily Telegraph has a subtitled video of Pope Benedict reading his resignation in Latin. The sound and pictures tell the story. This poor old man is exhausted. God grant him rest in however many years he has left on this earth.

If he were 20 years younger, imagine what might have been…

Does anybody know how many voting members of the College of Cardinals participated in the Second Vatican Council? Is it likely that Benedict was the last pope to have had a role in the council? It is interesting to reflect that these last four popes — Paul VI, the John Pauls, and now Benedict — were popes whose papacies were, for better and for worse, marked by the Council. Of course historical eras are not easily divided, but my sense is that whoever the next pope is will be a man whose orientation is far less built around the controversies of the Council than his predecessors.

I mean, in a real sense, all subsequent popes will be affected by the Council, but it’s different to have lived through that era as a participant, versus having been spiritually formed in the postconciliar era. If we say the next pope is a post-post-conciliar pope, what is that likely to mean? Thoughts?

My intuition tells me that the SSPX has missed its best chance for full reconciliation with the See of Peter. The next pope, as a post-post-conciliar figure, may not have the particular interest in reconciling with traditionalists that Benedict did. I could be wrong.

Posted in Christianity. Tagged papacy, Pope Benedict, Roman Catholicism, Second Vatican Council, Vatican II.

35 Responses to Post-Post-Conciliar Catholicism

Richard M says:

February 11, 2013 at 4:09 pm

Hello Rod,

Does anybody know how many voting members of the College of Cardinals participated in the Second Vatican Council? Is it likely that Benedict was the last pope to have had a role in the council?

To my knowledge, the last cardinal of voting age to have participated in the Council, Francis Cardinal Arinze of Nigeria, passed the age of 80 last November. He served as a very young, fresh bishop in the last session. I can’t rule out that an eligible cardinal who might have appeared at a Council session as a seminarian or very young priest still exists, but I am not aware of any. Cardinal Godfried Daneels (turns 80 in June), retired archbishop of Brussels, was a student in Rome at the time – he might have dropped in on a session, but he wasn’t involved in the proceedings as such.

So yes, with the passing of Pope Benedict from the scene, we have finally reached the point where pontiffs with a direct, living connection to the Council have come to an end. There were five such popes, and that is all there will be. Very few of the Council Fathers are still alive at this point. And this may make it possible to finally come to an objective assessment of the Council.

My intuition tells me that the SSPX has missed its best chance for full reconciliation with the See of Peter.

It does seem that way now, doesn’t it?

It is hard to say what the future holds. It’s not impossible that the next Pope might be even more sympathetic to the SSPX (especially if it were, say, Cdl. Malcolm Ranjith of Sri Lanka). The difficulty is that the longer the Society remains outside the bounds, the more comfortable its members become in that status, with fewer and fewer having ever known anything different.
Richard M says:

February 11, 2013 at 4:13 pm

P.S. I should have added that Arinze – or one of the handful of other surviving Council Father cardinals – *could* be elected next month, but that seems highly unlikely that the conclave would elect a pope so old that he was ineligible to participate in his own conclave.

Joseph Ratzinger’s election at age 78 was rare enough as it was. Only four popes were elected at older ages, none of them older than 79.
EngineerScotty says:

February 11, 2013 at 4:19 pm

Perhaps a reconciliation with traditionalists can occur, that doesn’t also involve reconciling with anti-Semites?

After all, one can certainly utter mass in Latin without the words “perfidus Iudaeus”; and I suspect the objection that many (most?) Catholics have with SSPX is not about matters of ceremony.
Derek Leaberry says:

February 11, 2013 at 4:22 pm

Rod, I attend the SSPX-friendly independent Latin Mass parish of St. Athanasius in Vienna, VA. Most of the people in this parish are not interested in reconciliation with Rome unless Rome surrenders on most Vatican Two matters. That won’t happen. So SSPX is unlikely to be reconciled with Rome. When the head of SSPX, Bishop Fellay, showed Rome more ankle than many SSPXers thought wise, SSPX experienced a mini-revolt. Some priests were booted from the Society.

Those who attend the Latin Mass consider themselves a remnant and are pretty much content to be a remnant. They do not consider themselves sedevacantists but are also firm in their belief that Rome took a wrong turn in the Sixties. Certainly that is the attitude of most of the traditionalists who attend St. Athanasius. In a way, it makes them as obscure as the Amish. But like the Amish, those who attend the Latin Mass have an abundance of children. At St. Athanasius, large families of five or more children is typical. My wife and I have six. One family has ten. The future is with those who procreate.
Sean Scallon says:

February 11, 2013 at 4:35 pm

If the focus of new pope is to be on future, especially with the Third World, why would then this new pope concern themselves with past schism? There’s no point it. Should he reconcile himself with the dissenting nuns too?
Louis says:

February 11, 2013 at 4:40 pm

Perhaps he did not want to die while serving because it would be a distraction. He probably wants to make sure someone is in place first so there will be a smooth transition. There are many important things going on in the world. My guess is he will be the last European Pope for a long time. I disagree with your assessment of SSPX Rod for this reason: If the next Pope is from Africa or some other place he will be just as traditional as Benedict has been if not more. An African Pope will probably be much more outspoken about things as well. It will be interesting to see how the media will react to the new Pope. By the way have you considered that Paul VI, J.P. I, J.P. II, Pius XII, Mother Theresa, and Fulton Sheen are all moving towards canonization.
Carol says:

February 11, 2013 at 4:40 pm

Rod, OT, I apologize. Do you have an opinion on the funeral and burial of the recently discovered remains of Richard III? Andrew Sullivan thinks Richard should be given a Catholic funeral and burial since he was a Catholic. I have a feeling that England will go with an Anglican rite.

[Note from Rod: Thanks for this. No, I have no opinion about Richard III's burial. -- RD]
Fred says:

February 11, 2013 at 4:43 pm

Cardinal Justin Rigali, recently retired from Philadelphia, served as a young priest assistant in the first two sessions of the council. He, of course, went on to a long career in the Vatican as an English translator for Paul VI (both documents and in meetings with visiting officials and heads of state), as a Vatican diplomat and a member of the Curia, before being sent back stateside by JP II in 1994 as Archbishop of St. Louis.

[Note from Rod: Right, but I seem to recall that cardinals cease to be eligible to vote in conclaves after they reach the age of 80. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. -- RD]
Wesley says:

February 11, 2013 at 4:44 pm

This is a quote from Rod Dreher’s original article on Pope Benedict’s resignation: “I really do think that its time for a pope from the Global South. Benedict is the last pope from the twilight of Christianity in Europe. May the next successor of Peter be from among peoples of the globe who still affirm with vigor Peter’s confession.”

Why not a pope from the United States? I know that anti-Americanism in certain quarters of the Catholic Church might preclude the election of an American pope, but America is culturally similar to Europe. Even though Christianity is declining in America, it’s not in as bad a shape as it is in Europe. America has the fourth largest Catholic population in the world after Brazil, Mexico, and the Philippines. America also gives more money to the Catholic Church than any other country in the world.

I’m not at all against the election of a pope from the Global South, but I’m not sure that a pope from the Global South will be able to handle the problems that Christianity in general and the Catholic Church in particular faces in the developed Western world. It is still vitally important that Christianity be promoted and encouraged in the West. North America and Europe are still the wealthiest regions in the world and they are still the cultural, economic, and political leaders of the world. And America is the dominant partner in the Western world.
Louis says:

February 11, 2013 at 4:45 pm

The problem was not with Vatican II it was with all the Leftists who refused to implement it. Anybody in SSPX who is trying not to recocile is doing more harm to Christendom. The first Reformation was a disaster for the West!
Louis says:

February 11, 2013 at 4:49 pm

Whoops! I meant John XXIII was heading to canonization not Paul VII. At least not yet.
Johnny Silence says:

February 11, 2013 at 4:59 pm

I’m no expert, but doesn’t the African church have a rather different set of preoccupations than the Euro-American church? While the African church might be more traditional in some ways, especially in terms of gender and sexual morality, it’s my (limited!) understanding that it’s much more focused on the growth of Islam and the negative consequences of Western economic policy than is the Catholic Church in Europe and the Americas. The abundance of Europeans among the cardinals makes me think that if they did choose a new pope from the developing world, it’s more likely that he would come from Latin America.
JonF says:

February 11, 2013 at 5:11 pm

Re: The future is with those who procreate.

Those who procreate will die just like everyone else. Their children aren’t their clones– and even if they were that would mean zilch for their own beliefs and attitudes.
Fred says:

February 11, 2013 at 5:22 pm

Rod,

Rigali is 77.
Paul Emmons says:

February 11, 2013 at 5:41 pm

Rod, you are correct, if Wikipedia is correct in its article about Cardinal Bartolucci, who was over age 80 at his elevation (and also exceptional in not being a bishop). Over 80 years old one has no say in choosing a pope.

Whereupon we can muse over the irony of your friend’s calling Benedict a coward in your earlier post. If the rule is that at 80 you become too old even to *choose* a pope, isn’t it downright sadistic to expect an 85-year-old to continue *being* the pope to avoid being called a quitter?
MH - Secular Misanthropist says:

February 11, 2013 at 6:25 pm

Re: The future is with those who procreate.

Woo hoo the future is with me! Now what do I do with it?
cecelia says:

February 11, 2013 at 8:10 pm

While it is somewhat disconcerting to see a Pope resign ( or is it an abdication?) I do agree that at 85 Benedict should not and almost certainly could not have borne the demands of the Papacy. I would think that especially concerns about mental acuity would be very real. We all watched John Paul II decline from a vigorous 50 year old. But given that people live longer it may be common in the future for resignations. Another sign of the times I guess.

I used to be all for the idea of a Pope elected from Africa – now – I do not care where he comes from – I just want someone who will clean house – reform and reduce the size of the curia – and get serious about child sexual abuse.

What strikes me is how many people see this as a conspiracy or the cover up or prelude to some terrible scandal. Institutions – not just the Church but the nation state – have become so discredited and we have in turn become so cynical and wary – that the simple fact of his age being enough to explain this is not enough.

I think the real obstacle in electing an American Pope is how the American church is perceived – much too independent and then there is the baggage of having the Church appear to be run by those Imperialist Americans. So I would be very surprised if we got an American Pope.
Richard M says:

February 11, 2013 at 8:38 pm

Those who procreate will die just like everyone else. Their children aren’t their clones– and even if they were that would mean zilch for their own beliefs and attitudes.

Perhaps. But in my experience, the great majority of children of traditionalist Catholic parents keep the faith.

It’s the lukewarm and cultural parents that don’t do so well at transmission.
Turmarion says:

February 11, 2013 at 8:50 pm

This is the second or third time the SSPX has come up in the papal threads here, and I guess I don’t get why. Not to sound too blunt, but who cares about the SSPX? I mean, those who consider the Vatican II Church to be irremediable, heretical, or sede vacante wouldn’t want the SSPX and similar groups to return. Non-Traditionalists–and let’s face, it, Traditionalists are by the best estimates probably not more than 0.1% of the total population of the Church–obviously won’t care, most of them probably not even being aware of Traditionalist groups. I suspect that a lot of Trads, deep down, think that if the Church could just somehow get the SSPX back, it would be a massive shot in the arm that would invigorate the Trad movement within the Church so much that eventually the tide would turn, and all that post-Vatican II stuff would eventually just go away. The chances of which are about the same as magic pink unicorns appearing to grant our wishes.

In any case, as to the chances of the SSPX coming back to begin with–well, refer back to the pink unicorns. John Paul II and Benedict, both in his papacy and before as cardinal, have made the Tridentine Mass ever more available, and have bent over backwards and jumped through hoops to try to get the SSPX back. The simple fact is that it’s been twenty-five years since the SSPX were communicated, and all of their members and other schismatic Traditionalists that would be open to returning have returned (the FSSP, the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, and the Institute of the Good Shepherd, for example). What’s left is essentially a “rump church” that is not going to bend short of a total repudiation by the Vatican of the Second Vatican Council. Once more, refer to the likelihood of pink unicorns.

None of this even touches the huge streak of anti-Semitism and totally insane gender politics of the SSPX and many other schismatic Traditionalists.

I will mitigate my earlier “who cares” to this extent–broadly, the Church seeks the reunion of all Christians, which of course includes the SSPX. However, given hundreds of millions of Orthodox, the the Copts, and millions of other Christians a lot more favorably disposed to the Vatican than the SSPX is ever likely to be, how should the Church be prioritizing its efforts? Towards millions who may be reachable, and who have great contributions to make? Or towards a few thousand who want to undo the last fifty years and who will, barring the miraculous, never return, anyway?
Richard M says:

February 11, 2013 at 9:05 pm

I think the real obstacle in electing an American Pope is how the American church is perceived – much too independent and then there is the baggage of having the Church appear to be run by those Imperialist Americans. So I would be very surprised if we got an American Pope.

I think the real problem is the lack of any obvious American papabili.

Only Dolan and Burke are really well known internationally. Dolan’s bluff outsize personality and utter lack of curial experience and languages really hurt him; and Burke, much as we traddies might hope for his elevation, doesn’t have much personality and allies to make him very viable.

No, the next Pope is likely Ouellet or an Italian, with a (very) outside shot to one of the West Africans. Latin America really doesn’t have much in the way of papabili either.
Alice AN says:

February 11, 2013 at 9:16 pm

“The next pope, as a post-post-conciliar figure, may not have the particular interest in reconciling with traditionalists that Benedict did.”

Oh, from your lips to God’s ears. I do hope that Catholicism returns from this incursion into the traditional abyss. The laity of the church has been forced to keep the faith, even as the gulf between their conscience and Rome grew into a chiasm.

Of course, the council may elect an African pope; then we’d have traditionalist on steroids.

Only God can save the church now.
J says:

February 11, 2013 at 10:50 pm

Perhaps. But in my experience, the great majority of children of traditionalist Catholic parents keep the faith.

The latest respectable estimate I have read is about 40% retention for conservative groups such as Mormons. This is down slightly from 90%ish numbers some decades ago.
Charles Cosimano says:

February 12, 2013 at 12:47 am

Considering that the traditionalist Catholics would all fit into a a large broom closet, their breeding habits probably matter as much to the broader culture as do those of the Amish.

A Pope from the global south could be an interesting disaster for the simple reason that no one cares about the global south and no one would listen to him.
JonF says:

February 12, 2013 at 5:11 am

Re: Perhaps. But in my experience, the great majority of children of traditionalist Catholic parents keep the faith.

Perhaps, but the meaning of “traditionalism” and “conservatism” also change over time. 200 years ago tolerance for Protestants and Jews and acceptance of republican forms of government were anathema to any traditionalist Catholic. Nowadays you have to wade far out into the fever swamps to find anyone who follows the old throne-and-altar program.
Likewise in politics: how many of today’s conservatives would (seriously) agitate for repealing women’s suffrage, or the repeal of the 13th amendment, or a restoration to governance under the British monarchy– yet those were the conservative positions at certain eras of the past.
My great grandmother was disowned by her family when she married a Catholic and converted. Who would do that nowadays, outside a few cultish groups? A century from now Rod’s great-grandchildren may well consider themselves staunch members of the Right, and yet find gay marriage as unremarkable as we do with inter-denominational marriage today.
Time really does change all (worldly) things.
scotch meg says:

February 12, 2013 at 6:32 am

In my city neighborhood, there was a Polish National Catholic Church. Never heard of them? They were a schism of Vatican Council I. Probably the ultimate fate of the SSPX.
David J. White says:

February 12, 2013 at 7:49 am

After all, one can certainly utter mass in Latin without the words “perfidus Iudaeus”; and I suspect the objection that many (most?) Catholics have with SSPX is not about matters of ceremony.

The SSPX uses the 1962 Missal, in which perfidis was deleted from the Good Friday prayer Oremus et pro Iudaeis perfidis.

***

Turmarion, I think part of the reason for the interest in the SSPX is that they are the largest and best-organized of the traditionalist groups, with thriving seminaries. Whatever their deficiencies, they have a great deal of zeal, and many people would like to have that kind of enthusiasm back in the fold. Moreover, I think the Society looms much larger in Europe than it does here, which explains why European prelates are preoccupied with it, whether they are sympathetic or not. I’ve read that in France, half of all people who still go to Mass go to SSPX churches.
David J. White says:

February 12, 2013 at 7:51 am

The laity of the church has been forced to keep the faith, even as the gulf between their conscience and Rome grew into a chiasm.

Sorry, Alice, but if the gulf between the laity’s conscience and Rome has turned into a chasm,* then they haven’t been keeping the faith.

(* a “chiasm” is something else entirely)
MH - Secular Misanthropist says:

February 12, 2013 at 9:32 am

Charles Cosimano is correct. While religious conservatives often have higher rates of reproduction, their initial smaller numbers mean that any effects of geometric growth wouldn’t be noticed for a century or two. Over that period of time regression to the mean for a large portion of the group would be likely.
JohnE_o says:

February 12, 2013 at 9:36 am

On the possibility of a third-world Pope, Benedict’s brother has this to say:

http://news.yahoo.com/popes-brother-benedict-seeks-quiet-retirement-114701199.html

Asked whether the time had come for a pope from outside of Europe, Ratzinger said that could happen in future, but not immediately.

“For now I think the job will remain with a European,” he said.
Turmarion says:

February 12, 2013 at 11:24 am

David, that is a good point, but I think there are two problems:

One, their zeal is directed away from re-integration with the Church, so it is at present not of help.

Two, to use a business term, is what they do scalable, that is, can what works for the small group be applied to the large? In other words, can their zeal be spread to the whole Church? Or is the zeal based on things that aren’t useful at all (e.g. the zeal that comes from feeling oneself to part of the Chosen Few, which would no longer pertain after reunion) or which can’t be implemented (e.g. abolishing the vernacular Mass)? I don’t see anything about the SSPX that makes me think they would be scalable, even in France. Basically, I come down with Charles and MH on this.
Derek Leaberry says:

February 12, 2013 at 11:27 am

Although I would not exaggerate the numbers of traditionalist Catholics, I can assure Mr. Cosimano and others that the aggregate of traditional Catholics could not fit in a broom closet. Even my own parish, St. Athanasius, had about 500 weekly Mass attendees with several hundred attending sporadically.

As for the organizational strength of the SSPX, it is not only a worldwide organization but it has outgrown its Winona, Minnesota seminary. A far grander one is being built in rural Buckingham County, Virginia.
Roland de Chanson says:

February 12, 2013 at 11:40 am

None of this Traditionalism will matter much anyway once Papa Bertone has been elected.
Siarlys Jenkins says:

February 12, 2013 at 2:33 pm

If you want to dream beautiful dreams, how about if JP I had lived thirty years or so?
J says:

February 12, 2013 at 10:46 pm

A Pope from the global south could be an interesting disaster for the simple reason that no one cares about the global south and no one would listen to him.

It’s about time the show moved to Lagos or Rio.
Traddy Catholic in Cleveland says:

February 13, 2013 at 9:22 am

Here is how all this looks from the vantage point of one young, Tridentine Rite Catholic.

The Cardinals that Pope Benedict XVI appointed are not traditionalists in the same way as those of us who reaffirm always and forever the pronouncements of the Council of Trent and Vatican I. Yes, they are ‘conservatives’ in the sense that they affirm a lot of the counter-cultural aspects of Catholicism. They stand out as antique relics in the context of the social revolution of the past half century.

But they are very different from the kinds of martyr-ready Recusants who subscribe to “The Remnant” or spend hours pondering the Third Secret of Fatima.

All these Cardinals were first ordained in the 1970s. They were the early buds of the second Vatican Council. They bloomed at the height of the cultural apostasy. They were taken up in those experiments. These were all young excitable priests when the altars were being “re-muddled,” the convents were emptied, the catechisms were hidden under rocks. They reveled in insipid guitar masses. They regarded communion-in-the-hand as a solution to a massive logistics problem. They moved up the ranks at just the same time that the Lavender Mafia had its fiercest control over the seminaries. They urged the older set of clergy to accept radical ecumenism, altar girls, and open confessionals.

The Traddies mainly exist within the new crop of priests– the “Young Fogeys” as the insufferable Fr. Andrew Greeley once referred to my generation of Catholic traditionalists. Now we have to live with one or maybe two pontiffs before even having a chance of restoring some semblance of the old order.

Thankfully, Our Holy Father deigned to give us the motu proprio. At St. Stephen’s in West Cleveland, we can still participate in the Mass of St. Teresa of Avila, St. Ignatius of Loyola, and St. Vincent Ferrar. Young people who experience the Mass of Trent are frequently raptured in its majestic, sacred power to transform lowly sinners into ambitious would-be saints.

Conservatives will never re-take the Church by breeding. It is well-known that at least two of every five will become apostates. The good news, though, is that the seminaries no longer shut their doors to traddies. That was normal until just a few years ago. [Don't believe me? Read Michael Rose's Goodby, Good Men].

Last year or the year before (not sure which), the FSSP had more ordinations than the Jesuits. Slowly but surely, the rock that the builders (of Vatican II) set aside, will (once again) become the cornerstone.

…But I doubt we will see that happen under the next pope.