- The American Conservative - http://www.theamericanconservative.com -

‘Lock ‘Em In And Burn It Down!’ Cries SJW

“Lock ’em in and burn it down!” says an SJW at Queen’s University in Ontario. That’s what he jokingly proposes to do to people coming out to hear Jordan Peterson speak. Watch these little fascists in action:

Here’s part of the college newspaper’s report [1] on the turmoil leading up to the speech:

A number of professors on campus have taken a stance against the event, writing an “An Open Letter to Principal Woolf” in response to his statement.

The open letter, signed by professors from several departments, including gender studies, film and media, English and politics, expressed “dismay” with Woolf’s statement.

change_me

According to these professors’ statement, they believe Woolf “mischaracterized” the nature of the problem.

“You fail to acknowledge the members of the Queen’s community who are directly targeted by the anti-trans, racist, colonialist, anti-Semitic, and Islamophobic bigotry and violence that the speaker and his followers promote,” the open letter reads.
[Emphasis mine. — RD]

“The problem created by this lecture is not ‘free speech.’ The problem is that Queen’s is providing a platform to someone who already has extensive access to a range of venues for circulating his odious and ill-informed views,” the letter continued.

As of Feb. 26, the open letter has received 113 signatures from various students, faculty and alumni.

Fortunately Principal Woolf has a spine, and stood them down. [2] Good for you, Principal Woolf! That list of faculty signatories is helpful because it tells students which professors to avoid if they want to get an actual education.

Look, though, at one of the SJW thugs banging on stained-glass window, trying to disrupt the speech (to a packed house):

WHERE ARE THE POLICE?! Why are these people not being arrested and charged?! At some point, students are going to get sick and tired of being treated this way by Social Justice Warriors, and are going to start fighting back with their fists and with weapons. If the campus administration and the police will not keep order, then somebody will. You watch.

Meanwhile, Christina Hoff Sommers ran into a buzzsaw of SJW wokeness at Lewis & Clark Law School in Portlandia:

https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js [6]

https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js [6]

Radical leftists denounced Sommers in advance as a “known fascist.” Lewis & Clark ought to have thrown these disrupters out the minute they opened their mouth. But as the “diversity dean” action indicates, the administration at that college is on the side of the radicals.

A professor at another private college e-mails to me, about the Sommers no-platforming:

Behind every student engaged in such stunts is someone employed by the college encouraging and prompting him or her. In some instances it’s a faculty member or group of them, but the truly toxic presence on campuses is the student life division, and they have access to these kids 24/7. It’s amazing to me that we have faith and academic responsibility requirements for faculty, and then abrogate those standards when it comes to hiring staff. At [my college], as at most colleges, staff hiring and resources put into ancillary offices are far outpacing faculty hiring (as if there is such a thing any more) and spending on instruction. Student life people are by far the most difficult ideologues on campuses and are the cause of so much trouble. I could tell you a lot of stories about this, but read Benjamin Ginsberg’s “Unholy Alliance” [9]in the summer Modern Age to get a feel for it. Faculty are becoming increasingly irrelevant on college campuses, and will do stupid things to make themselves relevant. Even then, they are outmanned.

I have plenty of colleagues who are brutal and noxious ideologues, but they can cause me only so much trouble. 90% of my headaches are caused by low level administrators in our Title IX and HR offices and everyone in the student life division.

The good news is hat students are getting wise to this. There is a backlash coming, but I remain hopeful it’s a swing back to sanity. The rabble rousing students get the press, but there are a lot of good, smart, hardworking kids who want an education and are increasingly going to demand it. I think there’s something salutary afoot.

Let us hope so. That Benjamin Ginsberg piece is really good. [9] Excerpts:

It is important to understand that such concepts as safe spaces, microaggressions, and trigger warnings are not examples of the hypersensitivity of coddled college students as they are sometimes made out to be by the press. Instead, these ideas are designed to stifle free discussion and to block criticisms of left-liberal dogmas by declaring any and all questions about progressive political beliefs and their adherents to be illegitimate and intolerable. Even the mildest comment presenting a possible challenge to left-liberal orthodoxies will be labeled microaggressive, a threat to the safety of the campus and, accordingly, utterly impermissible. For example, the seemingly innocuous claim that “America is a land of opportunity” has been deemed a microaggressive or a microinvalidative allegation that racial minorities are unable to succeed because of their own shortcomings and not the institutional barriers designed to block their efforts. Hence, say politically progressive groups, the phrase should never be uttered on campus. So much for the idea that colleges are bastions of intellectual freedom.

Most college administrators seem reluctant to criticize left-liberal activists or coalitions of minority students, whatever they may do or say. On a few campuses, most notably the University of Chicago, where administrators recently declared that college should never be an intellectually safe space, college presidents have risen to the defense of intellectual freedom. On many campuses, though, administrators have forged what amount to tactical alliances with local activist groups and are unwilling to take issue with even the most outrageous claims voiced by campus progressives. Note the craven response of Yale’s administration to protests on that campus. The administration declined to come to the defense of two faculty members who were hounded by protestors after they had the temerity to speak up for free expression.

And:

The alliance between administrators and campus activists would be a bizarre political curiosity if it were not so damaging to America’s colleges and universities. Allowing left-liberal activists to have their way on college campuses threatens to transform an institution that had once stood for free expression and the critical examination of all ideas into a restrictive “safe space” ruled by a new thought police. Allowing administrators to have their way on college campuses is damaging in a slightly different way. When governed by the faculty, colleges tend to develop curricula that are exciting and challenging, as well as research agendas that have changed the world. From the perspective of administrators, however, only the fiscal bottom line matters. The curriculum is evaluated not from an intellectual perspective but from its capacity to bring paying customers to the store. Coming at it from different perspectives, administrators and campus activists seem to have found common ground in the safe space of intellectual mediocrity through consumer sensitivity.

This alliance is unlikely to collapse any time soon. Administrators and campus activists have much to gain from supporting one another. And both can rely on a phalanx of Title IX regulations by the Department of Education to stifle any faculty or student dissent that might arise. Critics can easily find themselves charged with some trumped-up Title IX violation certain to upend their lives for months. At Northwestern, for example, film professor Laura Kipnis was charged with a Title IX violation, namely creating a hostile environment, after a student complained about an article Kipnis published criticizing university policies governing sexual misconduct. Kipnis was cleared, but only after a lengthy hearing and a seventy-two-day investigation by Northwestern authorities. Under the kangaroo-court rules used in Title IX hearings, the accused individual is not entitled to an attorney but may bring a designated “faculty support person.” It seems, however, that supporting the accused is as risky as providing legal defense to the regime’s opponents in North Korea. The member of the Faculty Senate who attended the hearing to support Kipnis was, as a consequence, charged with a Title IX violation and forced to undergo an investigation for his role in the matter. Apparently only campus activists and their allies are entitled to safe spaces.

Read the whole thing.  [9]

What stands a chance of working to bring this tyranny crashing down? The only thing I can think of is what happened at the University of Missouri, when enrollment cratered after the craven administration allowed Social Justice Warriors to dictate campus policy. [10]But let me ask: did that really change anything at Mizzou? Honestly, I don’t know; I’m asking you.

When a university administration starts expelling students who disrupt the normal exercise of freedom of speech and association, that’s when we’ll start seeing these little thugs sorted out.

UPDATE: In this video, Antifa attacks a peaceful discussion at a UK university. It starts around 13:20. The encouraging thing is that some of the students in the audience fight back — with their fists. If university administrators and security personnel refuse to protect from assault peaceful speakers and those who want to hear them, then how, exactly, are law-abiding people not justified in taking matters into their own hands?:

88 Comments (Open | Close)

88 Comments To "‘Lock ‘Em In And Burn It Down!’ Cries SJW"

#1 Comment By Siarlys Jenkins On March 6, 2018 @ 3:02 pm

I am sure the other Blue States will be equally thrilled to take the best & brightest of the Red Staters.

If these are the best and the brightest… well, maybe, but in that case you should look up a book about the people who got us into the Vietnam War. Liberals, every one of them.

And plenty of other posts on this blog document how strong it is in the big, deep-pocketed, multinational corporations.

From the left, that’s a good thing. We can kill two birds with one stone. But anyway, this stuff isn’t happening in my neighborhood. One thing inner city African and Asian Americans are NOT rising up to support is gay and lesbian rights, and definitely not m2f transies barging into the women’s locker room.

#2 Comment By Frank On March 6, 2018 @ 3:11 pm

Most contemporary philosophers and psychologists understand that Peterson is a charlatan with little to say beyond platitudes. (“Stand up straight, it’s important; and I can tie in a few bible or Nietzsche quotes that seem relevant, if you want them.”)

It’s a shame that folks on both sides of the political spectrum have bought into his schtick enough to care one way or the other.

#3 Comment By EarlyBird On March 6, 2018 @ 3:22 pm

Disgusting and enraging. I think the dean who didn’t allow Hoff-Sommers to continue is just cowed by the cultural Marxists. Not that it is an excuse.

As for the violence of the antifa clowns, I want to ask where the condemnation by ordinary, mainstream liberals is against this? They will shrug and say, “It’s a tiny percentage of students,” or, “Oh, they’re just kids who are a bit too passionate.”

We’ve come to accept that becoming steeped in radical leftist theory is a kind of rite of passage for colleges kids. Oh, they’ll grow out of it. But imagine the outcry if so many kids went to college to become indoctrinated into, and dabbled in, neo-Nazism. Yes, I went there. Let’s not imagine that these thugs are any less autocratic, violent, or race-ethnicity-gender essentialist as any hardcore racist is.

#4 Comment By grumpy realist On March 6, 2018 @ 4:40 pm

Righteous anger is addictive, whether it is on the left or the right.

These kids obviously don’t have enough to do. If they had to get up at 4:30 in the morning to milk the cows, then trudge 3 miles to work, put in a 10-hour day, then walk home again, they wouldn’t have time for this sort of stuff.

It’s the US equivalent of British yobs screeching at each other over their relative soccer teams.

#5 Comment By Canaille On March 6, 2018 @ 5:04 pm

Matt in VA nails it in his comments.

Conservatives who dismiss “snowflakes” and their “safe spaces” are making a terrible mistake in not realizing the role that such revolutionary theatre plays as a harbinger of cultural and political change. Same with activism/organizing/marches. Far from being a frivilous pasttime of aging hippies without jobs, these street actions demonstrate the Left’s determination and power.

The complacency of bourgeois Republicans never ceases to astonish me. They seem to think that their way of life will continue as is in perpetuity because America possesses some kind of magic dirt that renders it immune to revolutionary upheaval. To them, all that is needed is a little economic tweaking here, a recalibration of messaging there, and all the discontents will be massaged out of the disaffected populations.

#6 Comment By Autreck On March 6, 2018 @ 5:59 pm

students are going…to start fighting back

I’ll bet you $10 that Kings Libertarian Society video is an outlier. I’ll wager another $5 that very few colleges actually experience a precipitous decline in enrollments.

#7 Comment By Antonia On March 6, 2018 @ 7:17 pm

Trouble with using fists to fight back against the antifa and other “protestors” is that the media and social internet will actually claim that those fighting back were the actual aggressors.
It’s happened with some incidents on the University of Washington campus.

#8 Comment By BCZ On March 6, 2018 @ 7:22 pm

“Watch these little fascists in action:”

Let’s be careful without authoritarian slurs, shall we?

Id propose “Watch these little neo-Marxists in action” or, my favorite: “watch these little Bolsheviks in action”

You don’t get to complain how the far right is vilified while the crimes of Communism are ignored when you play into that narrative.

Moreover, this has the virtue of accuracy.

#9 Comment By blackhorse On March 6, 2018 @ 7:29 pm

Neither Peterson and Sommers are provocatuers. They have legitimate arguments and should be allowed to state their piece.

#10 Comment By Fran Macadam On March 6, 2018 @ 9:21 pm

“Five years from now, who will care if the person checking out your purchase at the Shoe Warehouse was once a highly visible ‘XYZ Studies’ activist?”

No those degrees from the most prestigious colleges means that those activists will be the heads of HR departments in every corporation, choosing who to hire and whom to fire.

Don’t be woke, but wake up.

#11 Comment By Fran Macadam On March 6, 2018 @ 9:27 pm

“Lock ’em in and burn it down” is redolent of what the last administration’s Ukrainian regime changing revolutionary allies actually did to hundreds of Eastern Ukrainian protesters in May 2014 in Odessa.

#12 Comment By BadReligion On March 6, 2018 @ 10:10 pm

John Gruskos:

“If the conservatives are losing the fistfight, the police stand back and watch with a smirk on their face.
But the instant the conservatives start to win a fistfight, the police leap into action and start cracking conservative skulls.
This has been the pattern in Berkley, Washington DC, Charlottesville, and every other Democrat controlled jurisdiction.
That is why the SJWs and Antifa are so emboldened.
They know the police have their backs.”

This is almost diametrically opposed to reality. I’m not referring to all of this campus stuff, but out in the rest of the world, this is what happens, time and time again (this article nails it, and points out right at the beginning that it isn’t Antifa & co. who are actually killing people):

[11]

[12]

[13]

About all this campus upheaval, it does seem that there’s some problematic grouping of all noxious characters together, probably due to the preponderance of novice activists. There’s a difference (in my opinion!) between the people mentioned here and, say, Richard Spencer, Milo Yiannopolous (leader of online lynch mobs, who also spotlights transgender and undocumented students for harassment), and Charles Murray (he of the book that helped revive pseudo-scientific racism).

Does the “free exchange of ideas” require the wasting of time “debating” with creationists, climate-change deniers, racists, misogynists, and (a favorite around here) those who will tell LGBTQ students that yes, there is indeed something wrong, even diseased, with them?

EVW, you do realize that the very evil that your grandfather saw and fought against is the exact same thing that the so-called “SJWs” are battling against today? Those who want to scapegoat and even liquidate marginalized communities are on the receiving end of all of this activism you seem to dislike. The Axis’s list of targets should look familiar to you: Leftists and other labor supporters, racial and religious minorities, LGBTQ people, feminists, and anyone who sided with these communities.

#13 Comment By at the soundcheck On March 7, 2018 @ 12:05 am

Ben H “The end game is both practical (it becomes expensive to invite Peterson to speak because of “violence” that “follows him”; venues don’t want to deal with the hassle) and mind-warfare oriented (Peterson’s audience are continually slandered as violent).”

Nate J “Long story short: they are using their perceived status as victims and underdogs to seamlessly become the new rulers. It’s fascinating, really. I’ve never seen the perception of weakness so effectively traded for unmatched cultural power; who can recall a movement that pretended to be so weak and victimized while it was actually amassing all the tools necessary for tyranny?”

I find it fascinating too. The pattern is that of a classic bully, or someone with narcissistic personality disorder. What’s fascinating about what’s happening here is that so many are involved in this behavior. Not just the violence, but the continuous, growing, and widening “lament” and appearance of victimhood of the Left with their simultaneous, increasingly brazen shut-down of dissenters. It is textbook bully Tactics – committed by a multitude. It’s encouraging – very interesting – that the other group fought back – physically (tho I haven’t been able to watch these clips). Bullied individuals usually do not fight back, or not with good effect. But, a bullied group..? I hope the next group fights back, too. As for media blaming the ones fighting back against these violent portions of the Left, we all have our own recording devices now. The truth won’t be hidden for long.

Oldies, your Left is gone, and you drifted away from it. Ime, this is the Left. Verbally shutting down conversation, any expression that is different than their platform. It’s been growing since the late 90s. Arrogance, narcissism. These here are just the new, physically violent Left.

Also commenters are right on – about admin, HR, student life leaders. Something missing from these people’s development. They are trying to make up for a need, I think.

#14 Comment By Ben H On March 7, 2018 @ 1:07 am

Notably, we’re seeing the return of 1970’s style lawlessness and disorder. Law enforcement institutions aren’t doing their jobs protecting public order. They’re playing politics like the FBI, or gaming metrics to impress politicians like the Broward county Sheriffs, or dumbly standing by while the establishment’s shrieking banshees punish the enemies of the regime in college towns all over. The lawless are left alone, the lawful (easier targets) are harassed.

More and more institutions failing to even justify the purpose of their existence.

#15 Comment By bob On March 7, 2018 @ 2:49 am

Why I won’t travel to or buy anything from Oregon. Boycotts are a wonderful idea.

#16 Comment By LouisM On March 7, 2018 @ 3:14 am

I find this so repulsive and infuriating. Part of me wants the cr*p beaten out of these kids who never got the spankings they deserved as children. Part of me wants them expelled.

Schools are places to learn and these leftist protesters have nothing to do with learning. I can go further and say that most public schools are so leftist that they aren’t places of learning either.

#17 Comment By Powers Bert On March 7, 2018 @ 12:49 pm

Free speech means exactly that. You are either for it or against it. It would seem that many leftists are against it, which displays their lack of understanding and respect for open and honest debate.

#18 Comment By Thomas Hobbes On March 7, 2018 @ 3:26 pm

Philemon says:
Gosh, fists and weapons?

Makes fighting back by voting for Trump seem very measured and reasonable.

How so? Fighting when attacked is a natural response. Voting for somebody who is going to make the problem worse to spite somebody who will never know how you voted seems nonsensical to me.

BadReligion says:
EVW, you do realize that the very evil that your grandfather saw and fought against is the exact same thing that the so-called “SJWs” are battling against today? Those who want to scapegoat and even liquidate marginalized communities are on the receiving end of all of this activism you seem to dislike.

Nah, my grandfather fought nazis. Todays antifa mostly fights random bystanders and people trying to get home from work. Just because you want to fight nazis doesn’t mean anybody who apposes you is a nazi.

#19 Comment By Socrates On March 7, 2018 @ 9:22 pm

“Some students yelling and being disruptive” Yeah, no, that doesn’t do it justice. People are being prevented from speaking. That’s what you left out. And that’s a very direct attack against what is perhaps the most fundamental of all rights. Not to forget that by shouting down the speaker they are also abrogating the free speech rights of everyone in the audience. Free speech also includes the right to hear [or read, etc.] whatever one chooses. When someone makes that decision for me, what I can say, or what I can hear, they are acting as a tyrant.

#20 Comment By BadReligion On March 7, 2018 @ 9:36 pm

“Nah, my grandfather fought nazis. Todays antifa mostly fights random bystanders and people trying to get home from work. Just because you want to fight nazis doesn’t mean anybody who apposes you is a nazi.”

Random bystanders and commuters? No, the Battle of MSU was in opposition to Richard Spencer and his goons, including Matthew Heimbach. The confrontation (not a battle) in DC a few weeks ago was aimed at Cernovich/Posobiec and company, notably including prominent racist Jared Taylor, so never let it be said again that the alt-light aren’t racist.

Of course, not everyone in disagreement/opposition is a Nazi. Everyone knows that.

#21 Comment By Fran Macadam On March 7, 2018 @ 9:45 pm

People stoke themselves into a hysteria of self righteousness, so that they can justify doing very bad things to others. The extremity of it is revealing of just how bad they intend it to be.

#22 Comment By Siarlys Jenkins On March 7, 2018 @ 10:22 pm

I have an answer to “Lock ’em in and burn it down.” Oh shut up you bloody fool. A conversation could then ensue.

Just because you want to fight nazis doesn’t mean anybody who apposes you is a nazi.

Indeed, I have the impression that people who want to fight Nazis are going to FIND Nazis somewhere because they want to fight some. Even if they have to look under every bed. Not all marginalized communities are worthy of support. Some are marginalized for good reason. Pedophiles, to use an extreme example.

Notably, we’re seeing the return of 1970’s style lawlessness and disorder. Law enforcement institutions aren’t doing their jobs protecting public order.

Law enforcement agencies were notably brutal and capricious circa 1970.

Id propose “Watch these little neo-Marxists in action” or, my favorite: “watch these little Bolsheviks in action”

Haven’t I mentioned recently how the Bolsheviks dealt with this sort of infantile disorders?

#23 Comment By Josep On March 7, 2018 @ 11:07 pm

@ bob
Queen’s University is located in Ontario, not Oregon. Even then, I don’t think boycotting a whole state is a fair, rational conclusion.

#24 Comment By Rob G On March 8, 2018 @ 7:31 am

“you do realize that the very evil that your grandfather saw and fought against is the exact same thing that the so-called ‘SJWs’ are battling against today?”

That’s ridiculously laughable. The average SJW couldn’t tell an actual Fascist from a Fig Newton.

“Those who want to scapegoat and even liquidate marginalized communities are on the receiving end of all of this activism you seem to dislike.”

The Iron Laws of Liberal Tolerance:

1) The only intolerable thing is intolerance.
2) We get to define “intolerance.”

Never forget Shigalyev: “Proceeding from unlimited freedom, I conclude with unlimited despotism.”

Progressivism is ultimately all about the latter.

#25 Comment By Siarlys Jenkins On March 8, 2018 @ 10:54 am

Of course, not everyone in disagreement/opposition is a Nazi. Everyone knows that.

But where to draw the line, and what measures should be taken… everyone doesn’t agree on that. There are times when one group takes into their own hands that its time for forceful suppression, and others disagree. Ultimately, such disagreements can be settled by the question, “How many divisions does _____ have?” But at that point its not about who is right. Hitler didn’t lose because he was a bad man. He lost because the Russians had more manpower to sacrifice than Germany and its allies combined, and because the US was at its peak of industrial productive capacity, able to turn out more planes and tanks. (Antifa, notably, did not keep Hitler from taking power).

I have no objection to an organization along the lines of our modern-day would-be antifas interposing themselves between armed men waving Nazi or confederate flags who are actively trying to intimidate or harm men, women or children of any age, race, creed, color, religion, national origin. I have often had an impulse when the original terrorist organization known as the Ku Klux Klan is depicted in movies, or when seeing a photo of an actual lynching, that it would have been good if someone with an automatic weapon had showed up to mow them all down. How would that scene in “Mississippi Burning” outside the church where a civil rights rally had just been held, have gone down if five white men armed with rifles had stepped forward and confronted the KKK waiting to pounce on those leaving the church?

But that’s in the realm of fantasy. None of us were there, none of us who think about such things could honestly say if we would have had the courage to act or the skill to do so effectively, and no contemporaries did anything of the kind. (The KKK made several attempts to burn down my great-great-grandfather’s house, and he eventually moved to another county).

I dion’t know what Bad Religion’s personal judgment is about when where and how to act, and against whom. I do have a sense that the wannabe antifas are rather indiscriminate in picking targets, often do end up rampaging against anything moving in their vicinity, and disrupt a lot of peaceful events where reasonable people might choose to exchange pointed questions and answers. They take a lot of decisions into their own hands that are not theirs to make. In fact, there are federal laws against using violence and intimidation against someone who is exercising a federally protected right, and antifa is often in violation of such laws.

#26 Comment By Thomas Hobbes On March 8, 2018 @ 12:18 pm

BadReligion –
By me, in Portland, most of what antifa does is harm bystanders and commuters. I’m sure you guys can occasionally find actual nazis to fight, but even the occasional nazi punch is probably more damaging than helpful.

Josep says:
Queen’s University is located in Ontario, not Oregon. Even then, I don’t think boycotting a whole state is a fair, rational conclusion.

Yeah, most of the state is pretty conservative outside Portland and Eugene.

#27 Comment By Brian Villanueva On March 9, 2018 @ 7:38 am

“The curriculum is evaluated not from an intellectual perspective but from its capacity to bring paying customers to the store.”

As long as the Pell-Grant and student-loan backed customers keep coming, this absurdity will continue. It stops when students and parents refuse to foot the bill for this crap.

It’s already happening somewhat: Biola University, Christendom College, Patrick Henry, Hillsdale… expect these schools to experience rapid growth and competitive admissions. As fewer universities offer real education, those that do will prosper.

#28 Comment By VikingLS On March 9, 2018 @ 10:18 am

“BadReligion –
By me, in Portland, most of what antifa does is harm bystanders and commuters. I’m sure you guys can occasionally find actual nazis to fight, but even the occasional nazi punch is probably more damaging than helpful.”

Antifa, like the KKK before them, is a cocktail of outrage and cowardice and that, and ONLY that is why they hide behind masks.

The mask is because they fear being held to account, by police, by society, by their parents, and by their future employers in banking, finance, law, and education.

We need to find ways to get these people into court, both criminal and civil, and make sure that their actions are a matter of public record.

We do that, the wealthy kids flee Antifa, and the whole movement collapses.

#29 Comment By VikingLS On March 9, 2018 @ 10:36 am

“Does the “free exchange of ideas” require the wasting of time “debating” with creationists, climate-change deniers, racists, misogynists, and (a favorite around here) those who will tell LGBTQ students that yes, there is indeed something wrong, even diseased, with them?”

Yeah, you’re going to take on fascists but you’re afraid to debate the Baptist Student Union and Ken Hamm?

I guess we know now why Antifa tries to focus its violence on the weak and unarmed.

#30 Comment By BadReligion On March 9, 2018 @ 11:52 am

“That’s ridiculously laughable. The average SJW couldn’t tell an actual Fascist from a Fig Newton.”

On the contrary, or perhaps I should say that the acceptance of fascist ideas is so common that, unfortunately, one can see it come up again and again, if one knows how to look.

“The Iron Laws of Liberal Tolerance:
1) The only intolerable thing is intolerance.
2) We get to define “intolerance.””

I don’t know what liberals have to do with this exactly, but the point is that perhaps you should let the marginalized tell you what constitutes intolerance, or even worse.

Siarlys: In fact, some of America’s first Antifa were well known for battling the Klan. The Industrial Workers of the World had several shootouts with the KKK. The fact is that the state colludes with the fascists more often than not, and in any case, nobody (especially the marginalized) can rely on the state for protection.

That’s why the first two principles of Anti-Racist Action are “We go where they go” and “We don’t rely on cops or the courts.”

#31 Comment By Rob G On March 10, 2018 @ 9:17 am

“Yeah, you’re going to take on fascists but you’re afraid to debate the Baptist Student Union and Ken Hamm?”

Oh, snap!

“I should say that the acceptance of fascist ideas is so common that, unfortunately, one can see it come up again and again, if one knows how to look.”

Again, laughable, when anything remotely non-progressive is automatically deemed “fascist.”

“the point is that perhaps you should let the marginalized tell you what constitutes intolerance, or even worse.”

Like the kids say, “As if!” It isn’t the marginalized that are determining what constitutes intolerance; it’s progressives/liberals determining their favored groups, then defining intolerance accordingly.

#32 Comment By Siarlys Jenkins On March 10, 2018 @ 8:02 pm

Siarlys: In fact, some of America’s first Antifa were well known for battling the Klan. The Industrial Workers of the World had several shootouts with the KKK.

You flatter yourself. The IWW were not your antifa. Appropriating the name of a mostly long-vanished organization does not make you their worthy successor. I am quite familiar with the history of those who fought real klansmen. In fact, the KKK tried more than once to burn down my great-great-grandfather’s house in retaliation for his service in the 11th Tennessee Cavalry, United States Army.

Similarly, most if not all of those who style themselves “The Black Panther Party” today haven’t a clue about Huey P. Newton’s writing on intercommunalism, and couldn’t recite the BPP Ten Point Program if their life depended on it.

#33 Comment By BadReligion On March 11, 2018 @ 12:16 am

“The mask is because they fear being held to account, by police, by society, by their parents, and by their future employers in banking, finance, law, and education.”

You really don’t know what you’re talking about. Quite frankly, we primarily fear being doxed by the fascists. That can (and has) had life-or-death consequences. I also wouldn’t call what the police do as holding people to account, for the most part.

Also, banking, finance, law, and education? Seriously?

“Yeah, you’re going to take on fascists but you’re afraid to debate the Baptist Student Union and Ken Hamm?”

No, it’s not about fear. Stephen Jay Gould said that there was no point in debating these people, since it gives them legitimacy, and makes it seem like there’s a controversy over things like evolution, when there isn’t. Bill Nye has a different perspective.

“I guess we know now why Antifa tries to focus its violence on the weak and unarmed.”

Weak and unarmed? Have you been following the years of street clashes?

“Again, laughable, when anything remotely non-progressive is automatically deemed “fascist.””

This is disingenuous. I’m referring to how pseudo-scientific racism is allowed in this very comments section, along with toxic homophobia/transphobia, and the cruelty shown towards some of the least-powerful people around.

“It isn’t the marginalized that are determining what constitutes intolerance; it’s progressives/liberals determining their favored groups, then defining intolerance accordingly.”

Try listening for a change.

#34 Comment By BadReligion On March 11, 2018 @ 11:39 am

Siarlys, at the last Antifa-related protest I attended, just a few weeks ago, there were about a dozen IWW flags, held aloft by present-day Wobblies. Their General Defense Committee is a crucial component, delivering exactly what the name suggests.

#35 Comment By Siarlys Jenkins On March 11, 2018 @ 2:41 pm

Stephen Jay Gould said that there was no point in debating these people, since it gives them legitimacy

Stephen Jay Gould can be wrong. I for one engage people who doubt evolution on religious grounds all the time, because as long as millions of people are committed to such doubts, it is important to engage them. And I find I have a lot in common with them on almost any other subject under the sun.

It can be a useful political tactic to refrain from responding to or debating with someone or some position or group that has little to no traction, and is seeking to gain status by the fact that you took notice of them. It does not follow that you need to break their skulls or crack their crowns. If they are that insignificant, they have none worth demolishing.

It is fear. It is fear that the point of view being suppressed might actually make sense to a lot of people if they get to hear it. History suggests that suppression of viewpoints that have real traction with a significant mass of people is in the long run ineffectual. Consider Bismarck’s anti-socialist law for example. History also suggests that if a point of view really contains the degree of internal contradiction that comes with any form of oppression, it cannot stand a firm and vigorous challenge. Often, the most effective challenge is a sharp and probing question, not a riot.

I’m referring to how pseudo-scientific racism is allowed in this very comments section

So what? Assuming anything allowed here fits that descriptive, it doesn’t fare well at all. Hector and I alone can crush that nonsense with one hand tied behind our back, and we’re not the only ones who enjoy shooting those particular fish in that particular barrel.

along with toxic homophobia/transphobia

You’ll have to elucidate on that. One man’s homophobia is another man’s basic biology. The devil is in the details.

Try listening for a change.

Ah, so you don want your voice to be the only voice anyone has the option to listen to?

I do think a good tactic would be to start ripping the masks off the little wannabe antifas whenever they show themselves. Much better than sneaking up behind someone with a garrotte.

#36 Comment By Siarlys Jenkins On March 11, 2018 @ 9:09 pm

at the last Antifa-related protest I attended, just a few weeks ago, there were about a dozen IWW flags, held aloft by present-day Wobblies

Don’t take nothing to print yourself a card. Refer to my observation about present day “Black Panthers.” Present day Wobblies is about as meaningful as present-day Packard Bell… a name bought by a new company from the assets of a long bankrupt firm to produce a totally different product because the name had positive associations, or was thought to.

To all and sundry: I think Bad Religion is sincerely motivated, but his impact on political action reminds me of Elizabeth Gurley Flynn’s response to a man from Boston who showed up with a banner reading “Workers of the World! No God! No Master! All for one and one for all” at a rally of Lawrence, Massachusetts, textile strikers. (A large portion of the striking workers were devout Roman Catholics, and being Irish, Flynn knew what the impact would be.)

#37 Comment By BadReligion On March 11, 2018 @ 10:09 pm

“It can be a useful political tactic to refrain from responding to or debating with someone or some position or group that has little to no traction, and is seeking to gain status by the fact that you took notice of them. It does not follow that you need to break their skulls or crack their crowns. If they are that insignificant, they have none worth demolishing.”

You misunderstand. When we talk about places like schools being the places for free exchanges of ideas, there is a problem where lots of people think that all ideas are equally valid and deserving of time. These are the people who think that they are entitled to their own facts. Scientists, for example, do not have the time (among other things) to continually “debate” with clueless creationists and such.

“You’ll have to elucidate on that. One man’s homophobia is another man’s basic biology. The devil is in the details.”

Except basic biology, and/or perhaps more specifically studies of the brain, mind, etc., indicates that nobody chooses their sexuality (even Ronald Reagan admitted this in a very influential editorial in the 1970s), and even if they did, it’s not like consenting adult homosexuality is hurting anybody. If one is going to cling to the position that people like that are at best confused and disordered, that’s not acceptable. It’s not only factually wrong, it also leads to terrible consequences, which we still see today.

“Ah, so you don want your voice to be the only voice anyone has the option to listen to?”

No, not at all; I was referring to people from various marginalized communities. Their perspectives should determine what’s offensive and worse, since they are on the receiving end.

“I do think a good tactic would be to start ripping the masks off the little wannabe antifas whenever they show themselves.”

First, that’s assault, so don’t be a hypocrite. Second, wannabe? The fascists are the ones who’ve actually been killing people lately, and have attempted it on numerous other occasions!

“Much better than sneaking up behind someone with a garrotte.”

Yes, especially when we’re talking about some vapid academic.

#38 Comment By Siarlys Jenkins On March 13, 2018 @ 1:22 pm

When we talk about places like schools being the places for free exchanges of ideas, there is a problem where lots of people think that all ideas are equally valid and deserving of time.

That is a mislocation of the issue of free speech. If someone is talking nonsense, nobody has to listen to them. When I run into people earnestly handing out gospel tracts on the street, I usually tell them “thank you, I prefer to read the original for myself.”

Nobody is being compelled to file into the auditorium to listen to Jordan Peterson or anyone else. Not at gun point, not by threat of losing course credits, no compulsion at all. They can go to a bar and get drunk, stay in their room reading Das Kapital, stay in their room enjoying physical contact with their significant other, praying in the nearest church, or whatever.

Peterson’s ideas may not be valid at all… but that doesn’t mean people who think there is some validity to them, or some purpose in hearing his invalid ideas, have no right to hear him, or he has no right to spout them.

Ultimately, freedom of speech is not about glorifying Good Speech. It is based on the premise that none of us trusts a government inspector to parse which speech is protected and which speech is not. So, we put up with a lot of bad speech, because sometime, in some administration, some government bureaucrat would dream up some reason to suppress our own preferred speech. So we don’t let the government have the authority to do that at all. We also don’t let a mob interrupt speech in loco res publica.

I would not appoint a creation scientist to teach biology. But, if a creation scientist came to deliver a speech at the invitation of some students who wanted to hear him, I wouldn’t go shout him down. I might go ask him some tough questions, or I might decide that was a waste of my time.

Its a little like pro-life groups complaining that Planned Parenthood locates a lot of clinics in low-income and minority areas. No doubt a lot of people who need and desire PP services live there. PP offers a lot of free or subsidized services to people who can’t afford the full price. To those who call it a form of genocide, I respond that when I see armed men herding black women to abortion clinics en masse, I will be very concerned. But if an individual woman chooses of her own free will to go there, I could care less that the number of black women going to PP is proportionately greater per 100,000 population than the number of white women.

You know, BadReligion, your approach is not much different than Operation Rescue. It all comes down to, I feel so passionately about my own facts that I have the right to disrupt, obstruct, and deny others who are equally confirmed in their understanding of the facts. (I think you and I would agree on the relevant facts when it comes to abortion rights … but Rod, VikingLS, JonF, Hector, and quite a few others would not.)

Except basic biology, and/or perhaps more specifically studies of the brain, mind, etc., indicates that nobody chooses their sexuality

This is precisely the problem with “you aren’t entitled to your own facts.” Matters of intense political dispute often involve genuine dispute as to what the facts are. And, human grasp on facts is often deficient. Science can never tell us what Is True. Science can tell us that based on the known data and repeated experiment, it seems highly unlikely that any other interpretation could be valid. We work with that, until we learn something more. Einstein’s theory of relativity did not throw Newtonian mechanics out wholesale, as the heliocentric theory tossed out the Ptolemaic and Aristotelian theories of a geocentric universe, but Newton was objectively wrong in his conclusions.

ALL the “scientific” studies on the nature of homosexuality, and much of the work in trans-sexuality, have been done by people with an ax to grind. Thus, everyone who is passionate about these debates does indeed have “their own facts” from people with impressive degrees. I rather suspect that in 100-200 years, we will understand that the early 21st century fads about sexuality were as incomplete and mislocated as the fads of the 20th, 19th, 18th, and 17th centuries.

One of the mislocations of Marxism, of course, is the smug notion that Now We Understand The Truth Of Human History As An Exact Science. We didn’t. A lot of lives have been paid for this misunderstanding.

I was referring to people from various marginalized communities. Their perspectives should determine what’s offensive and worse, since they are on the receiving end.

The notion of marginalized communities is awfully elastic. Pedophiles claim to be, and in a sense are, a marginalized community. But we don’t let them determine what’s offensive in responding to their condition. To suggest that any “marginalized” category is a “community” capable of making a group decision about what is “offensive” is delusional, and it is objectively racist. Black people ARE NOT “all alike” and don’t even agree among themselves about when, where, how, and by who the word “n****r” should be uttered.

I think you will find that ripping a mask off of someone who is in the act of committing assault is not ipso facto a crime… and you will not look like a brave warrior whining about “he assaulted me” if someone pulled off your mask. One of the most ludicrous episodes in the history of the IWW was when two factions disputed who was the properly elected leadership. One tried “direct action” which did it little credit, and the other sought an injunction from the “bourgeois courts” as to their proper claim to lead an organization dedicated to overthrow of capitalism and sabotage of employers’ property.

We can agree that academic life is vapid. I have very little to do with campus environments. Rod at some point looked up that I am employed by a major university, but I do field work in a different state and have never set foot on campus, thank God. I was contributing to reference works while driving a bus and holding a transit union membership card. But you seem awfully preoccupied with vapid academic issues.