RLTW

TomT-Yes, I served in the Rangers as well as other units, I also did some work/training down south after my military days. I have a M.S. degree, a wife and three kids. I work long hours and usually surf the net at night if I can not sleep. I choose to use simple words and basic sentence structure and no I could careless what any one thinks about me, Liberals or not. I have done more and seen more then most will ever see or do.

No, I was making a point. The US military are volunteers from within the population of the US, so, therefore, it is reasonable to assume you will have a certain percentage of people in the military just like within the civilian population that break the law. Most, if not 99% of military personnel are outstanding law abiding service men and women. While training and Chain of Command goes a long way in keeping a handle on the few bad apples there is always one or two that fall through the cracks. I do not like it, but that is a reality. Those individuals need to be held accountable for their actions and the punishment need to be severe and swift.

Now, explain to me how sleep deprivation, loud music, being forced to stand for hours is torture. I never said to beat, cut, twist or pull information out of individuals. The Intel guys can tell you that does not provide actionable intel. I have no problem making them live in the same conditions that our troops are living in (tents, MREs, no special diets, or extra privileges) or just making their lives miserable by making them work for low pay just like prison.

Lets put this into context being there is a war being fought. War is a very dirty, nasty business. There is nothing humane or pleasant about it. Forget all the Hollywood war movies you grew up watching. We have Rule of Engagements, Articles of War (predates the Geneva Convention) the Geneva Convention, plus the media oversight (arm chair generals) whom have nothing on the line with there decisions second guessing everything. The US military is usually the only one playing by the rules. We put our soldiers lives at greater risk to reduce civilian casualties. Our infantry soldiers would rather go into urban combat and conduct house to house fighting to get at the enemy combatants who want to hide among the civilians hoping to trick the Americans into calling in an air strike where they can blame the US for killing civilians.

llyonnoc, I said no such thing. I said for those who have not served inside Special Operation units not to speak about things they know nothing about. How you can go from my saying not to talk about special operation units and their methods of operation, to not saying anything about what the military does with people it captures is beyond me.

llyonnoc-I guess no one has died in police custody. The police have never abused a prisoner. Stop thinking as if the military operates in a vacuum. It does not. As I previously stated, the military is a microcosm of the US population. The good and the bad. So following your logic if I support the police that is a bad thing as well. Like I said, you will find bad people within any organization. I believe there are a few soldiers that were captured alive, why the hell is no one talking about them and worried about how they are being treated.

Steve, just what do you know about LTG.McChrystal? What do you think is the perfect type of general to place in control of operation in Astan? What gov’t agency or program has the capabilities to do what Special Forces and Civil Affairs do?

A few bad apples and everyone wants to condemn the whole bbunch. Not everything the media reports are facts. The story usually changes as more facts are uncovered during an investigation, but if the charges against the military personnel are shown to be unfounded the media just goes on to the next story without running a front page story saying they got it wrong.

Call me what you want. If you were attacked or your family member was in danger I would be one of the first people you would want to help you and do your fighting for you. I love my country and what it stands for. I’m a Ranger and when I fight I fight to win. I served because I believed in what our country stands for, I just did not say it I put my money where my mouth was and stepped up to the plate. I went all the way and became a Ranger (battboy for those who know what that means). If you want torture send the spec4 mafia to talk with them.

darker-No, what the Romans did to Jesus was not torture, it was inhumane punishment by our standards. It was a common practice at that time. He was sentence to a public beating and crucifixion. Crucifixion was a common method used by the Romans and others at that time. Torture is the use of various methods to inflect physical pain and suffering to obtain information from an individual or individuals. So I do not know what point you are trying to make. We were not discussing religion.

RLTW

Mark – scary post.

Mark you suggest as Americans what the military does to people it captures is none of our business. That’s wrong. The military represents our country. I served just like you. I believed we had better morals than our enemies. Under your prescription, we don’t. We can be just like them. What is right or wrong is not an objective standard it is what the military commander decides.

This goes beyond the issue of torture. We’ve had people die in military custody. You apparently think that’s all right too. If that’s the case, what are we fighting for? To become like the criminals of Germany, Japan, North Vietnam, etc. Read Steve’s post again and tell me why the military is above the law.

Your frustration with dishonest liberals was expressed as “I say take no prisoners than. Problem solved.” We assume you were making a point, and not advocating murder.

Up until 2002, we in the military (and the CIA, etc) WERE taught that “the” Geneva Convention applied only to uniformed soldiers, regardless of how informal the uniform may be.

The ICRC (International Red Cross) became full of people who had an “anti-American” agenda, and they changed their website and the wordings of the various “Geneva Conventions”, and they ABSOLUTELY blur any distinction between civilians, terrorists, and regular soldiers. They CLEARLY (now) consider ANYTHING except formal and polite interview as TORTURE.

Your distinction between “torture” as defined by permanent damage and organ failure, and the rabid-liberal definition of “TORTURE” as ANYTHING THAT OFFENDS THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS, will be completely lost on the BUSH-HATERS. You will be painted as argeeing with every bad thing that has happened (if, indeed, that was NOT your intention).

Many of us have “served”.
Some more than once.

Now it turns out that was NOT torture and just a bunch of hype?

Oh, if Dick Cheney says so, “it must be true”. LOL

As for the Tillman remark. Leave the man alone. If all the conspiracy theories where even partially credible Kevin Tillman would not of stayed in the Regiment. Not only did he stay, but he finished his entire enlistment in the 2d/75th. That is the same battalion his brother served in. He was with the separated group that fateful night. We have lost many Ranger brothers in this war and just as many in training. So where the hell are all the cries for those guys. Between I believe 1978 and 2001 over 37 Rangers have died in training accidents (gun shots, jump accidents, helicopter/plane crash, bus, artillery, drownings etc.)

You people who have not served our great country need to respect those who do and when it come to special operation forces and how they operate, you all need to shut your mouths. You have no clue as to whet you are talking about.

I went through far worse than what you people are calling torture. College fraternities,sororities, elite military units, survival schools, ivy league universities for hundreds of years. Some people say corporal punishment is child abuse. Every enemy combatant is going to say he was tortured. Why not the media and you people will believe them without any proof. The same guys who was going to blow up a school full of little kids or some other innocent civilian. I say take no prisoners than. Problem solved.

RLTW

Kind of says it all doesn’t it. Real Conservatives respect our Federal Laws and revere our Constitution.

SIGN THE PETITION Ca;;ing for a Special Prosecutor

http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG

.